M-16 vs M-4 vs What?

[Fly Navy]

Mass... sorry to hear that. But hey I live in Ohio and we're the Bluest red state in the Union, so I feel your pain as to assinine rules put together by people who ignore logic in regards to firearms. I especially loved not being able to wear my sidearm offduty as a LEO if a buisness decided to put up a sign saying that no one that respects the law can have a firearm on the premises. That kind of crap really shows its ignorance after an Off-duty OHP officer was shot and killed at a buisness which did not allow him to carry his weapon.

As far as I'm concerned, you have zero right over any other citizen to carry concealed off-duty. You are off-duty, period. Just like the military. HOWEVER, I have no problem automatically issuing concealed carry permits to police officers. That makes sense and it is what should be done.

I'm with you on those bullsh!t signs though. You can't just opt to not adhere to a law like that. It's crap.

 

[Lawman]

See heres the problem, and this changes from department to department, and state to state. As a licensed "Peace Officer" in the state of Ohio it was departmental SOP that while we were out of uniform, if we witness a felony in progress we were expected to respond. This is no differnt in being a first responder (EMT, Paramedic) and being expected to pullover on the highway at any accident that doesnt have medical care on scene. So the idea of being expected to stop a robbery or rape or any other felony in progress without having a weapon in what can very easily become a deadly force scenario really pisses me the hell off. And beleive me if I failed to act being put in one of those scenarios and somebody was injured or god forbid killed because I wasnt armed who do you think they will blame. You'll see the officer who failed to acts names in the paper for a hell of alot longer then you will hear about the SOB that walked into a store and demanded the cash and then shot the owner and 4 bystanders.

 

[Fly Navy]

See heres the problem, and this changes from department to department, and state to state. As a licensed "Peace Officer" in the state of Ohio it was departmental SOP that while we were out of uniform, if we witness a felony in progress we were expected to respond. This is no differnt in being a first responder (EMT, Paramedic) and being expected to pullover on the highway at any accident that doesnt have medical care on scene. So the idea of being expected to stop a robbery or rape or any other felony in progress without having a weapon in what can very easily become a deadly force scenario really pisses me the hell off. And beleive me if I failed to act being put in one of those scenarios and somebody was injured or god forbid killed because I wasnt armed who do you think they will blame. You'll see the officer who failed to acts names in the paper for a hell of alot longer then you will hear about the SOB that walked into a store and demanded the cash and then shot the owner and 4 bystanders.

That's quite the predicament and sheds a different light on the issue. With that said, if the state requires its police officers to respond off duty, then I guess you really do have to let them carry. However, I'd like to see a mix of the two. Automatically issue them a concealed carry permit. Make a law like Florida where it is legal to intervene on forcible felonies. In Florida, if I were carrying and someone was being raped, I would be authorized to use deadly force, as a citizen carrying concealed. I believe that's a much better environment than say... New York City, where one can go to jail for intervening on a felony because you harmed the perpetrator.

It certainly complicates the issue. Please don't mistake me, I have zero problem with police carrying off-duty, I just think it should be required to issue them concealed carry permits. I think it helps the concealed carry movement as a whole

 

[Lawman]

It certainly complicates the issue. Please don't mistake me, I have zero problem with police carrying off-duty, I just think it should be required to issue them concealed carry permits. I think it helps the concealed carry movement as a whole

Cant speak for every state, but in Ohio, once you get your OPOTA certificate, you are "automatically issuable" meaning they dont make you take the 12 hour course for CCW. The one problem with Florida and Texas's "good semeritan self-defence" laws is that you can have all the statue and precidence in the world on your side and it wont make a damn bit of differnce in Civil Court. That was really hammered on if we ever have to use our weapon to intervine, no matter how right you were legally as far as criminal law goes, you dont get to bring any of that into a civil court room. So yeah, go ahead and intervine but your training and credentials better be infaulable otherwise your gonna live in a paper box for the rest of your life, because all it takes is a good lawyer to win a civil case, law and right has nothing to do with it.

 

[VetteMuscle427]

Getting back to the topic of rifles....

I have a Springfield M1A Scout w/ an EOTech holosight on it. Just got it zeroed this past weekend. It is great. 200m chest shots, 5 targets, 5 seconds, unsupported. The gets real hot if you fire 40 - 60 rounds real fast though.

Waiting on my Rock River CAR-A4 w/ some goodies on it to come in. Then I can form a nice opinion.

 

[Lawman]

Getting back to the topic of rifles....

I have a Springfield M1A Scout w/ an EOTech holosight on it.

Thats a fun rifle to play with. One of the armorers at the local range bought one and let a few of us Regulars put some rounds threw it. Although I think the idea that Springfield was advertising to use the weapon with entry teams is just unrealistic. If anybody else has ever lit off a .308 in close quarters they would know why, your ears will ring for a weak.

I wouldnt mind sticking a bipod underneath one and keeping it in the trunk with a 4x scope on it. It would make a good marksmen rifle for situations with heavily armed/dug in offenders.

 

[VetteMuscle427]

I have a harris bipod on mine; the EOTech has a 1moa center dot, so I have no doubt that if the 7.62 ballistics were known, you could easily make a 400m shot. Prone, taking my time I was able to make 3" groups at 200m. Ammo is a little expensive though... I've stopped shooting the XD-40 so that I can buy 7.62.

 

[squeeze]

about the best .308 out there (IMO) is Federal Gold Medal Match 175gr HPBT. It's some pricey stuff (about a buck a round), but for long range accuracy is just about "it" as far as .308 goes.

edit: the ballistics of the higher end ammos are known and readily available if you google for 'em.

 

[Fly Navy]

Cant speak for every state, but in Ohio, once you get your OPOTA certificate, you are "automatically issuable" meaning they dont make you take the 12 hour course for CCW. The one problem with Florida and Texas's "good semeritan self-defence" laws is that you can have all the statue and precidence in the world on your side and it wont make a damn bit of differnce in Civil Court. That was really hammered on if we ever have to use our weapon to intervine, no matter how right you were legally as far as criminal law goes, you dont get to bring any of that into a civil court room. So yeah, go ahead and intervine but your training and credentials better be infaulable otherwise your gonna live in a paper box for the rest of your life, because all it takes is a good lawyer to win a civil case, law and right has nothing to do with it.

Yup, this is a MAJOR problem in our legal system. Civil cases have gotten entirely out of hand. A rapist has no right to financial compensation because you put a bullet in him, legally. It's crap and it's wrong.

 

[VetteMuscle427]

Yup, this is a MAJOR problem in our legal system. Civil cases have gotten entirely out of hand. A rapist has no right to financial compensation because you put a bullet in him, legally. It's crap and it's wrong.

I totally agree. But it is what it is.

 

[Fly Navy]

I totally agree. But it is what it is.

It is what it is because of lawyers and liberal judges.

 

[HueyCobra8151]

Yeah, we need some serious tort reform.

I always found it amusing that John Edwards was "fighting for the little guy," after jacking up the "little guy's" health care expenses while amassing his own personal fortune making frivolous malpractice lawsuits.

Wait, weren't we talking about guns?
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So...is anyone else out there completely opposed to this rifle not for any real reason, but simply because it is so hideous?

I think we should update the M14A1, use space age polymers to make it lighter, while still retaining the properties of an "old school rifle" that are cool (high lethality, long range, good penetration).

I don't have any special reason for thinking this...just when I drill with an M14 I always wish I could take it out and fire it.

And while we are bringing back old rifles for no reason other than because they look cool...we should update this badboy and bring it back into service

 

[Fly Navy]

Both the M14 and BAR are hideously complicated to machine and expensive to make too. The M14 went away as a primary battle rifle for a reason. Great rifle, great range and power, absolutely horrendous full-auto and it and its ammo is heavy.

The BAR rules, I shot one once at a public machine gun shoot in MA. Awesome experience!

 

[HueyCobra8151]

The BAR rules, I shot one once at a public machine gun shoot in MA. Awesome experience!

I'm jealous. I would love a chance to get some trigger time on it.

Of course, the M60 and the SAW are light years better in terms of LMGs.

I guess those old rifles are sort of like Samurai swords. Beautiful to look at, Amazing to hold, but time has made them impractical.

 

[VetteMuscle427]

I think we should update the M14A1, use space age polymers to make it lighter, while still retaining the properties of an "old school rifle" that are cool (high lethality, long range, good penetration).

I don't have any special reason for thinking this...just when I drill with an M14 I always wish I could take it out and fire it.

Dude, firing the M1A w/ a synthetic stock... I don't think you want it any lighter. The recoil on it is already harsh. I put 400 rounds down range the other day, I have a bruise on my shoulder.

Though, all my friends w/ various AR's have "bullet" envy... they are all thinking of .308 rifles now.