Looking for gouge? Ask your Stupid Questions about Naval Aviation here (Part 1)

[KBayDog]

Then again, the bar for "cool chopper stuff" has been set pretty low by the HMM.

I'll admit, there is nothing "cool" about landing.

However, I'll take an "un-cool" HMM landing over a VMA ejection any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

[A4sForever]

.....If you are landing on a carrier, are you using power for altitude and pitch for airspeed....Or do you just do whatever you need to do to stay on glideslope and speed and aoa

Nope ... not "whatever" ... as a fixed wing carrier pass and arrestment is probably the MOST controlled landing evolution extant. Same for FCLP's at the field -- you fly at the BOAT like you practice at the field. Do some good.

Qualifier: You ALWAYS do "whatever" is required to get the job done and do it safely (so you can live to do it again tomorrow), but a guy who does "whatever" at the ship as a matter of practice will have a short and ugly career as a carrier/BOAT pilot. Make sense???

Constant attitude (AOA) is that which you get early after the break on the downwind leg to check and attain and maintain proper airspeed and then you control the ball (which translates into glideslope, i.e., the appropriate "altitude") for wherever you are from @ the 90/abeam to touchdown.

The only guys who ever "really" used the nose for airspeed were the prop guys. Think STOOFs and earlier ....

It's a little more complex than this in reality, but for an internet forum on the "stupid" questions thread -- this is good enough.

 

[whitesoxnation]

Nope ... not "whatever" ... as a fixed wing carrier pass and arrestment is probably the MOST controlled landing evolution extant. Same for FCLP's at the field -- you fly at the BOAT like you practice at the field. Do some good.

Qualifier: You ALWAYS do "whatever" is required to get the job done and do it safely (so you can live to do it again tomorrow), but a guy who does "whatever" at the ship as a matter of practice will have a short and ugly career as a carrier/BOAT pilot. Make sense???

Constant attitude (AOA) is that which you get early after the break on the downwind leg to check and attain and maintain proper airspeed and then you control the ball (which translates into glideslope, i.e., the appropriate "altitude") for wherever you are from @ the 90/abeam to touchdown.

The only guys who ever "really" used the nose for airspeed were the prop guys. Think STOOFs and earlier ....

It's a little more complex than this in reality, but for an internet forum on the "stupid" questions thread -- this is good enough.

I should have used a better word than "whatever" but I meant a combination of all things (cant really explain)

If you are using power to stay on glideslope, arent you going to see fluctuations in airspeed as well? Or do you just ignore that so long as you are stable on glide slope and at the proper AOA?

Or is it that if you are on glide slope @ proper AoA then descent above/below GS and associated speed gain/loss will be negated once you correct?

 

[A4sForever]

....If you are using power to stay on glideslope, arent you going to see fluctuations in airspeed as well? Or do you just ignore that ....

You never ignore anything.

Do some stupid-study on constant attitude/variable power approaches and you tell me ....

 

[whitesoxnation]

You never ignore anything.

Do some stupid-study on constant attitude/variable power approaches and you tell me ....

Well the only exp. I have is civilian short field landings where they preach power for altitude pitch for airspeed, but if you increase power you increase airspeed... so if I was low and onspeed I would increase pitch to slow my descent and at the same time increase power to keep airspeed constant. My CFI would always bitch at me saying thats not right but I always hit within the first stripe at a good nose high AOA and nice slow speed, so neither he nor the DPE never argued with that.

But it seems like tailhookers always keep the same pitch in, so my question is how are you increasing power to decrease your rate of descent without increasing airspeed --OR-- once you get on glide slope and bring the power back after getting back on GS does your airspeed settle back down because your @ the right settings

 

[nittany03]

I should have used a better word than "whatever" but I meant a combination of all things (cant really explain)

If you are using power to stay on glideslope, arent you going to see fluctuations in airspeed as well? Or do you just ignore that so long as you are stable on glide slope and at the proper AOA?

Or is it that if you are on glide slope @ proper AoA then descent above/below GS and associated speed gain/loss will be negated once you correct?

Welcome to my life (doing CQ workups now). I think you essentially get the big picture with a couple misconceptions. **Disclaimer: I am a lowly Cat I who is open to correction/criticism from Paddles and other fleet guys concerning whatever I goon up in the following paragraphs.**

For every correction there is a counter-correction. We are taught to make power corrections in three parts: off, back on to stabilize or "catch it", and then back off to the new setting. Vice versa if you're low. We are searching for a "neutral power point" which gives us the optimum VSI of 600-800fpm when on glideslope. If you're high you need more. Low, less.

Also, don't forget, airspeed does not equal AOA. Airspeed for a given AOA will decrease as you get lighter due to fuel burn. It will increase with increased angle of bank, which are the primary factors we are concerned about in the pattern.

I don't care what my precise airspeed is once I have cross-checked my AOA to it on downwind. This makes sure that my AOA indicator is calibrated correctly. For the Prowler, on-speed is roughly 1.5 times your fuel load in hundreds of pounds plus 115 knots, for 30 degrees flaps, depending on your store load. AOA will equal airspeed for a given weight and load factor/AOB.

I then concentrate on getting trimmed up on-speed AOA (whatever airspeed that turns out to be; it should be very close to what I calculated; but I scan primarily AOA, not airspeed), with a proper abeam distance, at the 180 to start my turn. There, the mantra is "Power (on), Pause, Turn" because, coming around the corner, I will need to be about 10 knots faster to be on-speed due to my angle of bank. This necessitates what we call a "wings-level transition" on the other end. This involves sucking off power as you roll wings level. This way, you avoid going fast as you get the wings back under the jet rolling into the groove.

Your goal here (rolling into the groove) is to be at a good "start," roughly 3/4 mile and 320-350 feet AGL. This is because you don't want to spend your whole 15-18 seconds of groove length trying to fix a cocked up start. Paddles hates this and may very well wave you off or give you a crappy grade. The goal is on-speed, lined up correctly, and on glideslope or slightly above at the start. Makes life easier.

Both in the turn and in the groove you must coordinate glideslope control with on-speed. In the Prowler, the engines are below the longitudinal axis of the jet and therefore every power change pushes the nose up or down, and thus off-speed. Also, it is neutrally stable in pitch in the landing configuration. Meaning it's happy at any AOA from 15 units to stall. This was not as big a factor in the Goshawk which liked where it was trimmed and would return there if you let go of the stick IIRC. I have no clue how Hornet/prop guys deal.

But the bottom line, whitesox, is that a correction in any axis should be made while coordinating whatever controls are necessary to maintain the other two. If you are getting faster, you may be subconsciously pushing the nose down (flying the
"ball" with the nose) instead of letting the airplane stay at the airspeed it's trimmed for. I do this in the Prowler and am currently trying to beat it out of my head.

 

[whitesoxnation]

Welcome to my life (doing CQ workups now). I think you essentially get the big picture with a couple misconceptions. **Disclaimer: I am a lowly Cat I who is open to correction/criticism from Paddles and other fleet guys concerning whatever I goon up in the following paragraphs.**

For every correction there is a counter-correction. We are taught to make power corrections in three parts: off, back on to stabilize or "catch it", and then back off to the new setting. Vice versa if you're low. We are searching for a "neutral power point" which gives us the optimum VSI of 600-800fpm when on glideslope. If you're high you need more. Low, less.

Also, don't forget, airspeed does not equal AOA. Airspeed for a given AOA will decrease as you get lighter due to fuel burn. It will increase with increased angle of bank, which are the primary factors we are concerned about in the pattern.

I don't care what my precise airspeed is once I have cross-checked my AOA to it on downwind. This makes sure that my AOA indicator is calibrated correctly. For the Prowler, on-speed is roughly 1.5 times your fuel load in hundreds of pounds plus 115 knots, for 30 degrees flaps, depending on your store load. AOA will equal airspeed for a given weight and load factor/AOB.

I then concentrate on getting trimmed up on-speed AOA (whatever airspeed that turns out to be; I'm scanning the AOA indexers and gauge now), with a proper abeam distance, at the 180 to start my turn. There, the mantra is "Power (on), Pause, Turn" because, coming around the corner, I will need to be about 10 knots faster to be on-speed due to my angle of bank. This necessitates what we call a "wings-level transition" on the other end. This involves sucking off power as you roll wings level. This way, you avoid going fast as you get the wings back under the jet rolling into the groove.

Your goal here (rolling into the groove) is to be at a good "start," roughly 3/4 mile and 320-350 feet AGL. This is because you don't want to spend your whole 15-18 seconds of groove length trying to fix a cocked up start. Paddles hates this and may very well wave you off or give you a crappy grade. The goal is on-speed, lined up correctly, and on glideslope or slightly above at the start. Makes life easier.

Both in the turn and in the groove you must coordinate glideslope control with on-speed. In the Prowler, the engines are below the longitudinal axis of the jet and therefore every power change pushes the nose up or down, and thus off-speed. Also, it is neutrally stable in pitch in the landing configuration. Meaning it's happy at any AOA from 15 units to stall. This was not as big a factor in the Goshawk which liked where it was trimmed and would return there if you let go of the stick IIRC. I have no clue how Hornet/prop guys deal.

But the bottom line, whitesox, is that a correction in any axis should be made while coordinating whatever controls are necessary to maintain the other two. If you are getting faster, you may be subconsciously pushing the nose down (flying the
"ball" with the nose) instead of letting the airplane stay at the airspeed it's trimmed for. I do this in the Prowler and am currently trying to beat it out of my head.

Thank you nittany and A4s. I'm going running so I'll read this when I get back. Hopefully this can be my life as well (yes corny)

 

[a_m]

speaking of CQ's (and since the first time I ever go to the boat will be in the FRS), what is the job of a WSO (beyond comms) in the carrier environment?

 

[Brett1]

Excellent explanation Nittany.

 

[xj220]

We were ENS flight students, this possibility never entered our minds and probably wasn't on the Navy's mind either....

What exactly does that mean, for the uninitiated of course.

edit: I'm referring to what the quote was about and not the quote itself.

 

[MasterBates]

If you are a witness to a mishap, you cant be on the AMB that investigates it.

 

[HAL Pilot]

What MB said. Plus an ENS flight student doesn't have the knowledge or experience to be on an AMB. The Navy knows this so they wouldn't assign him anyway.

 

[Pcola04/30]

Good description Nittany.

All through the RAG (COD world) you constantly hear "your right hand controls glide slope (power levers) and your left hand controls AOA (yoke)" so if you are low and on speed you add power....the nose wants to pitch up and yaw is introduced, this requires forward pressure on the yoke and pressure on the rudder to maintain on speed and fuselage alignment. The exact opposite happens when making a power off correction. End result is all four limbs moving to maintain on-speed, on-glide slope, and fuselage alignment. Fun for all.

 

[nittany03]

Good description Nittany.

All through the RAG (COD world) you constantly hear "your right hand controls glide slope (power levers) and your left hand controls AOA (yoke)" so if you are low and on speed you add power....the nose wants to pitch up and yaw is introduced, this requires forward pressure on the yoke and pressure on the rudder to maintain on speed and fuselage alignment. The exact opposite happens when making a power off correction. End result is all four limbs moving to maintain on-speed, on-glide slope, and fuselage alignment. Fun for all.

Luckily, we don't have to worry about rudders unless we're single engine. But Grumman decided we were too good for ailerons and needed another challenge, so they gave us flaperons. Now every lineup correction drives you low . . .

 

[A4sForever]

....Grumman decided we were too good for ailerons and needed another challenge, so they gave us flaperons. Now every lineup correction drives you low . . .

Not if you're smooth and anticipating, younger Bruddah. But if you don't like flaperons in the groove -- how would you like to do 60 degree visual dives with 'em??? Same problem ... similar corrections.

Seriously, good job on the power/AOA chalk-talk post (above) ... I figured that either WhiteSox (with study) or some other bright-eyed and bushy-tailed young CAT 1 Nugget-STUD would come to my rescue and I wouldn't have to type the new American novel. So you did it for me. I think that's called delegation of authority or some such thing .... thanks.

In the landing evolution, your hands are ALWAYS movin' in opposite directions when you come right down to it. It's not a "thought" thing, it's a "feel" thing. To keep the ball in the center -- left hand forward -- right hand back, and vice versa. Over and over again, smoother and faster and "smaller" as you close on the ramp. That's true of any landing, when you come right down to it. A 747 landing @ Hong Kong flies the same way (basically) as an A-4 does on USS BOAT.

Same for lineup -- get it early, check it often, and hold it all the time -- small, quick, precise, smooth corrections ALL THE WAY down the groove ... and as you pointed out -- most jets do NOT have "rudder" corrections in the groove with all engines turnin' and burnin' (the A-3 Whale being an exception). Wavin' the props and C-2/E-2's the occasional LSO comment of "NERR" was seen in the grade book.

I hope and trust you will do good at the BOAT. The guys who really sat down and ANALYZED the pass all the way around usually did the best overall, all things being equal. It's preparation and anticipation -- always has been; always will be ....

If you do good -- perhaps you should consider LSO in your Fleet Squadron -- make it known -- 'cause it would be a GOOD JO job in an NFO-heavy Queer squadron. :icon_wink