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Looking for gouge? Ask your Stupid Questions about Naval Aviation here (Part 1)

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FLYTPAY

Pro-Rec Fighter Pilot
pilot
None
Here's one.. S-3 community was the worst in the Navy... Fun but ugly airplane full of underachievers, wanna-bes, clueless, and quality-spread pilots and NFOs... Sorry to rain on any Hoover Driver/Riders parade but I don't miss a damn thing from my Hoov days..
You might have quality spreaded into the S-3....not me:icon_rage.....I was a cool-aid drinking WTI who loved the S-3 vs the world scenarios though ;)
I've been responsible for hiring the three S-3 drivers in our community. All three have been top shelf for us. No gripes.
You hired a west coast guy in Octoberish '05, forgot the guy's name but he spoke highly of the interview process.
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
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Super Moderator
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Here's a stupid question for Paddles. Could one of y'all put up a "grading passes 101"? The shorthand LSO's use - is it Fleet-standardized? Taught at LSO School? Or just whatever the CAG Paddles prefers? What's considered start/at the middle/in-close? Etc and so on.

Hummer NFO pass grading: "Did we stop? Then it looked good to me."
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Here's a stupid question for Paddles.
1. Could one of y'all put up a "grading passes 101"?
2. The shorthand LSO's use - is it Fleet-standardized?
3. Taught at LSO School? Or just whatever the CAG Paddles prefers?
4. What's considered start/at the middle/in-close? Etc and so on.

Hummer NFO pass grading: "Did we stop? Then it looked good to me."
"To the pilots, a good LSO was something between a doctor and a brother. Just to hear his calm voice on a rainy night was reassuring. Many LSO's made it a point of knowing every pilot on a carrier, calling them by their first names, regardless of rank, as they came into land .... "

..... excerpt from "OVER THE BEACH" by Zalin Grant

Tomorrow mebbe ... there's too much for one post and it's too late. :sleep_125

But:

1. Yes ...

2. Suppose to be standardized ... but it "changes" slightly over the decades ... most of the phraseology used to be in the LSO NATOPS -- I don't have one anymore ... there was always some consideration for "creative" phraseology, but it was frowned upon as only YOU or your platform mates might know what it meant ...

3. We did not have a dedicated LSO school when I got my qual; that came later. My peers and I did it at the end of the runway and at the ship like those who came before us ... hundreds of hours ... thousands of passes observed and controlled. Assuming you were any good and had "talent" (or a good "eye" and "feel" for it) you were usually only as good as those who taught you. My LSO mentors were fortunately VERY good ... starting with the ORISKANY'S legendary Ron "No-Nights" Coalson and moving on up from there. Nose will stick his nose in here with more skool information, I am certain ...

4. There's actually more; a LOT more in fact ... i.e., abeam, at the 90 (or anywhere else in the turn if it's appropriate) ... start (X) ... in the middle (IM) .... in close (IC) .... at the ramp (AR) ... and even "to land" (TL i.e., passing the platform) ... and "in the wires" (IW) which wasn't used too much and was usually thought of as "old school" ...

Better yet .... I'll wait until Nose or maybe someone else does most of the work, then I'll chip away at what I do/do not like agree/don't agree with .... that's called delegation. :)
 

Nose

Well-Known Member
pilot
1. Could one of y'all put up a "grading passes 101"?
2. The shorthand LSO's use - is it Fleet-standardized?
3. Taught at LSO School? Or just whatever the CAG Paddles prefers?
4. What's considered start/at the middle/in-close? Etc and so on.

I concur with everything A4s said. Only a little bit has changed, it is still the "artform" that he was taught. We have computerized so grades are now stored in a database which makes things like "Top 10" and Trend Analysis much easier. It also means that a couple of the comments have changed. Not many symbols any more. "Rough" as in rough wings, rough nose, etc, is now "RUF" It used to be a squiggly horizontal line. Fly-through-up and fly-through-down, which used to be hand drawn (usually improperly) are now "/" and "\" respectively.

1. Grading Passes and 2. Shorthand and 4. What is the start, in close...
101 Remember the main reason we grade passes is so a pilot can learn from every pass and the Pilot and LSO can spot trends which need correction. My philosophy as a CAG LSO was not "lets see how much detail we can go into" it was more "hit the high points and tell him what he saw."

Tell him what he saw. Not what you saw. Important distinction. If you saw him low, but he saw a centered ball because he was slow and cocked up, then you would say slocu "slow cocked up". Then in the debrief when he doesn't see the low you saw, you can explain the airspeed deviation maksked the glideslope deviation.

We can start grading anywhere we want. In my airwing, we gave upgrades for the SHB - shit hot break, but only if you could handle it. Common calls in the RAG and TRACOM are TWA or TCA - too wide/close abeam. WUX, AA Wrapped up start, angling approach. All valid comments. ("If you ever hear a student say "Don't call the ball until you are wings level, because Paddles can't start grading until the ball call." Please punch them.)

So, basics: We look at three things. Glideslope, Lineup, Speed. There are lots of comments you can use:

Glideslope - H - High LO - Low. HCD - High coming down. B - Flat. (Flat is ALWAYS a glideslope reference, not aircraft attitude) S- Settle
\ - fly down through the glideslope / - Fly up through the glideslope

Lineup - LUR/LUL Lined up left/right R-L -Right to left.

Speed - F - Fast Slo - Slow CU - Cocked up ND - Nose down ACC - Accelerate DEC - Decelerate

We can also talk about the magnitude of a deviation. If it is (in parentheses) it is "a little" if it is underlined that means "a lot".

We grade any part of what we see, from the break to the flyaway on a B (Bolter) or WO (waveoff). For tracking and debriefing purposes, we break the groove up into distinct (but subjective) parts. X - start (usually about the time you go wings level). IM - In the middle. IC - In close. AR - At the ramp. IW - In the wires.

Then we take the deviation comments, put them in a location and build a pass. (We will talk about grading in a minute)

(OK) HX (TMP.CDIC) FBAR 4
Fair pass. High Start, a little too much power on the come down in close, fast flat at the ramp. 4 wire.

-- NEP.DRIM OCSDEC.LUIC LOBAR 3
NO GRADE Not enough power on drift right in the middle. Overcontrolled big settle decel on lineup inclose. Low, very flat at the ramp. 3 wire.

OK (NEPIC) (SAR) 2
OKAY PASS. A little not enough power in close, a little settle at the ramp. 2 wire.

Grades and grading philosophy:

Our (me and the other CAG LSO) philosophy was that in our airwing, it would be harder then in most to get an OK. We did not give sugar calls and expected pilots to get aboard without help. We tried to make it so that the only time you got a radio call was if we thought you were losing control of the pass. Not unheard of on our platform to get a "no grade" and not have anything said. Our mantra was "If he is going to clear the ramp, land near centerline with no drift, and not break the jet (For A4s, that is a new concern in the Hornet age:() then we normally won't talk to them.

Grades (and points assigned on 4.0 scale)

OK 5 "Okay Underlined" No deviations. (Never happens) Usually assigned for single engines, 1000th trap, very tough enviornmentals, etc.

OK 4 "Okay pass" Above Average Pass. Minor deviations with timely and proper corrections.

(OK) 3 "Fair Pass" Pass with average deviations and corrections.

B 2.5 Bolter. Basically a fair pass where you didn't get aboard. Boarding rate hit for pilot and squadron. Contrary to popular belief, a bolter is a safe, acceptable pass. (as long as you don't make a habit of it!)

-- 2.0 No Grade. (AKA "Stitch" or "Gash") Below average (but safe) pass. Excessive deviations and/or improper or untimely corrections and/or improper response to LSO call.

WOP 2.0 Pattern Waveoff. Usually issued for gross deviations in the approach turn. Excessive low or overshoot.

WO 1.0 Waveoff. Issued to prevent an unsafe pass from continuing. Caused by escessive deviations, compound deviations, or lack of response to LSO calls.

C 0.0 Cut pass. Unsafe. Probably a mishap.

WOFD * Foul deck waveoff. No grade awarded, doesn't count as a pass. (like a walk in Baseball) No boarding rate hit. (Exception- If you caused the WOFD by not having enough interval, then I would grade it as a WOP)

There are a few others:

OWO (Own Waveoff). Unless done at the start, not safe. Will definitely get a talking to from CAG Paddles and possibly Boss/CAG/CAPT.

WOW Waveoff Winds. Winds out of limits. Treated like WOFD.

3. Taught at LSO school: Not really. Like A4s said, it is an art. The only way you get good at it is to do it. Over and over and over and over.

LSO school is to waving what a simulator and Instrument ground school are to flying: You learn necessary info and procedures, but you don't learn to wave.

We spend a lot of time at LSO school going over stuff you don't normally cover on the platfrom during a recovery. ARBs (Aircraft Recovery Bulletins.) How the Gear works. How PALs works. LSO Administration. Safety considerations. Glideslope geometry (This one used to be a ball buster. We did actual trig calculations!) LSO Post Mishap Procedures. Pre-Op checks. Field equipment set-up, etc. And, since we were a "center of excellence" and were responsible for teaching the teachers, we did classes on giving classes.

There were four classes at school.

IFGT - 2 weeks. Initial Formal Ground Training. For first tour LSOs. We requested that an LSO have 1 cruise worth of experience prior to attending.

FRS/TRACOM - 1 week. Refresher geared towards LSOs on their way to FRS/TRACOM LSO billet.

AFGT - 1 week. Advanced Formal Ground Training. For LSOs on their way to CAG Paddles jobs.

Air Department class - Class for prospective Air Bosses and/or Boss+Mini+Shooters. This was a class we started when I was there, don't know if they still do it. Focus on ARBs. Lots of drills. Lots of communication. Talk about Boss role vs. Arresting Gear Officer role vs. LSO role.

We also did a seminar for any PDCAG during their training track.


How's that. Longest post ever?
 

HH-60H

Manager
pilot
Contributor
What are JOP, BAH, & PSD?
JOP = Justice of the Peace (not a Navy acronym)
BAH = Basic Allowance for Housing, the money you get paid in order to find a place to rent
PSD = Personnel Support Detachment, the Navy unit that does admin processing and money paperwork for Sailors
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
I concur with everything A4s said. ....How's that. Longest post ever?
Uhhhhh .... you win with longest post ever .... but I think you scared everyone.

Would you please repeat all after :
"I concur with everything A4s said .... " :D:D:D:D


21792830le3.jpg
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
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Super Moderator
Contributor
...If you saw him low, but he saw a centered ball because he was slow and cocked up, then you would say slocu "slow cocked up". Then in the debrief when he doesn't see the low you saw, you can explain the airspeed deviation maksked the glideslope deviation....How's that. Longest post ever?

Cool, exactly what I wanted to know. See, for instance, I thought the "slow cocked up" debrief was a state of being, not a deviation. :D

My other favorite was "little too much LSO in close" when Paddles is excessively chatty.

Usual procedure for Fentress FCLPs in our squadron was for a Stunt Mole to ride out as min-crew-in-back, then hop out and rotate pilots through until complete. Then the window-lickers climb back in for the trip back to NGU. So I was sitting in the LSO shack at Fentress one night watching the planes go 'round when a burble in the rotation left just one Paddles and me in the shack. Paddles asks me to write for him, starts in with the debrief. Me: "So, how's that get written out?" Paddles: "Open parentheses...forget it, I'll write it."
 
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