Leaving Vietnam vs AFG

[wink]

From two guys I know who were flying them up until the end:

#1 drive shaft removed and data plate removed. According to one of them, one of the aircraft had actually been used in Saigon as well.

Removing a drive shaft is well short of permanently disabling a helo. Parts are out there. The Iranians kept F-14s flying for a long long time. And it wasn't like there was an existing world wide support and supply network like there is for Phrogs. Taking a saw to a couple key places would ensure any helo would never fly again. Would take no more than 20-30 minutes depending on aircraft and tools. I am quite sure it took longer than that to remove the #1 drive shaft. But hey, what do I know? Guys smarter than me planned our withdrawal from Afghanistan. Right?

 

[AllYourBass]

Open Letter from Retired Generals and Admirals
Regarding Afghanistan

Looking forward to hearing some well considered alternative plans to what actually went down, because after digging through enough of these letters/posts/etc., the solution always seems to have been "Should've done it better, should've made sure we had the adequate resources, etc." Nothing tangible, just...should've done it better. Should've found a way to evacuate 100,000+ people without succumbing to a power vacuum waiting to collapse in on the conclusion of 20 years of occupation.

Also love all this "countries won't trust us America as a partner anymore" horseshit. Apparently I've been wildly misjudging world opinion on our occupation of Afghanistan and their measure of our success over that period of time.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Looking forward to hearing some well considered alternative plans to what actually went down, because after digging through enough of these letters/posts/etc., the solution always seems to have been "Should've done it better, should've made sure we had the adequate resources, etc." Nothing tangible, just...should've done it better. Should've found a way to evacuate 100,000+ people without succumbing to a power vacuum waiting to collapse in on the conclusion of 20 years of occupation.

Also love all this "countries won't trust us America as a partner anymore" horseshit. Apparently I've been wildly misjudging world opinion on our occupation of Afghanistan and their measure of our success over that period of time.

Do you think it could have been done better?

 

[scoolbubba]

The Towellyban offering to let us control Kabul til the end of the month but us deferring and saying we only needed HKIA is a pretty easy one to pick on. The "bad optics" of dumping more troops in to control the city while we pulled back in an orderly manner outweighed sticking to the timeline.

That might have cost 200 people their lives. It's hard to say what would have happened if we controlled Kabul during the pullout, but I bet there wouldn't have been a stampede/riot/giant vbied opportunity at the abbey gate that day.

 

[Pags]

I honestly don't see a way that this didn't end with a bum rush at the airport to get out of there at the end of X date.

 

[Pags]

Removing a drive shaft is well short of permanently disabling a helo. Parts are out there. The Iranians kept F-14s flying for a long long time. And it wasn't like there was an existing world wide support and supply network like there is for Phrogs. Taking a saw to a couple key places would ensure any helo would never fly again. Would take no more than 20-30 minutes depending on aircraft and tools. I am quite sure it took longer than that to remove the #1 drive shaft. But hey, what do I know? Guys smarter than me planned our withdrawal from Afghanistan. Right?

Maybe you missed the part where they also said they removed the data plate. Once that's done it obviously ceases to be a functioning aircraft (although I'm sure that was more for souvenirs than to preclude use).

 

[RobLyman]

Removing a drive shaft is well short of permanently disabling a helo. Parts are out there. The Iranians kept F-14s flying for a long long time. And it wasn't like there was an existing world wide support and supply network like there is for Phrogs. Taking a saw to a couple key places would ensure any helo would never fly again. Would take no more than 20-30 minutes depending on aircraft and tools. I am quite sure it took longer than that to remove the #1 drive shaft. But hey, what do I know? Guys smarter than me planned our withdrawal from Afghanistan. Right?

The two guys I know are pretty smart, but I am not sure they got to decide the manner used to disable the aircraft. It's also worth considering that their intent was to temporarily disable and devalue the asset.

 

[AllYourBass]

Do you think it could have been done better?

I imagine all of it could have been done better, because anything can be done better looking backward after the fog of war has cleared. But my opinion doesn't matter because I'm a 1310 with no relevant experience ?‍♂️ I am waiting to hear how the exit could've been executed better from somebody qualified to offer those inputs using the same data available to decision-makers who orchestrated the week's events, but useful analysis likely won't be available until the temperature dials down on current events (please link me to something useful if you've got it, because I've been searching to no avail).

There are dozens of people on that letter who I'd love more specifics from, but alas.

 

[wink]

Maybe you missed the part where they also said they removed the data plate. Once that's done it obviously ceases to be a functioning aircraft (although I'm sure that was more for souvenirs than to preclude use).

Seriously? You think a small piece of tin makes an aircraft airworthy? You think the "Taliban Aviation Administration" is going to frown on flying a plane without a data plate? As someone who has been part of an effort to source parts for 50 year old combat helicopters I can tell you that NO ONE ever asks for proof we have a data plate. And that is using the open legal market.

 

[FrankTheTank]

Seriously? You think a small piece of tin makes an aircraft airworthy? You think the "Taliban Aviation Administration" is going to frown on flying a plane without a data plate? As someone who has been part of an effort to source parts for 50 year old combat helicopters I can tell you that NO ONE ever asks for proof we have a data plate. And that is using the open legal market.

I read his post as sarcasm..

 

[wink]

I read his post as sarcasm..

Well sheeeit. Where are the smilies? I don't read minds.

Can I just add a clueless emoji to my post?

 

[wink]

I honestly don't see a way that this didn't end with a bum rush at the airport to get out of there at the end of X date.

Probably. But I think the goal would have been to ensure the bum rush didn't include American citizens or SIVs.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

I imagine all of it could have been done better, because anything can be done better looking backward after the fog of war has cleared. But my opinion doesn't matter because I'm a 1310 with no relevant experience ?‍♂️ I am waiting to hear how the exit could've been executed better from somebody qualified to offer those inputs using the same data available to decision-makers who orchestrated the week's events, but useful analysis likely won't be available until the temperature dials down on current events (please link me to something useful if you've got it, because I've been searching to no avail).

There are dozens of people on that letter who I'd love more specifics from, but alas.

Some general ideas that could have helped:

Know how many Americans are in the country, and maybe even where.

Listen to experts saying not to abandon Bagram.

Plan ahead to identify and vet Afghans we want to get out.

Have a plan to establish a perimeter so our allies can’t see videos of our supposed afghan allies plummeting to their deaths as we flee.

Just some basic stuff but hey I’m no expert.

 

[Pags]

Seriously? You think a small piece of tin makes an aircraft airworthy? You think the "Taliban Aviation Administration" is going to frown on flying a plane without a data plate? As someone who has been part of an effort to source parts for 50 year old combat helicopters I can tell you that NO ONE ever asks for proof we have a data plate. And that is using the open legal market.

That's how mod/retrofit lines work. There's a special jig that holds the data plate in place and then removes everything else around it. But because the data plate didn't move it's not a new airplane.

But yes, my post was sarcastic. Only the USG would see a data plate as something that's required for airworthiness.

 

[WhiskeySierra6]

Looking forward to hearing some well considered alternative plans to what actually went down, because after digging through enough of these letters/posts/etc., the solution always seems to have been "Should've done it better, should've made sure we had the adequate resources, etc." Nothing tangible, just...should've done it better. Should've found a way to evacuate 100,000+ people without succumbing to a power vacuum waiting to collapse in on the conclusion of 20 years of occupation.

Also love all this "countries won't trust us America as a partner anymore" horseshit. Apparently I've been wildly misjudging world opinion on our occupation of Afghanistan and their measure of our success over that period of time.

Some general ideas that could have helped:

Know how many Americans are in the country, and maybe even where.

Listen to experts saying not to abandon Bagram.

Plan ahead to identify and vet Afghans we want to get out.

Have a plan to establish a perimeter so our allies can’t see videos of our supposed afghan allies plummeting to their deaths as we flee.

Just some basic stuff but hey I’m no expert.

I agree with all of these and I'd like to add for consideration:

Don't leave during the fighting season (Apr-Oct).

Evacuate civilians and SIVs BEFORE the military.

Also, not an expert.