IFS/NFO's

[Uncle Fester]

I say again: the Screening in IFS is for three things -
1) aeronautical adaptability (do you freak out or barf continually in the plane?),
2) academic aptitude (are you smart enough for this?), and
3) work ethic (are you willing to put in the study hours to excel, or just enough to scrape by?).

All three of these things apply just as much to the SNFO's as the SNA's. We don't care if your airwork sucks. But if you go to a PRB for your performance in IFS, your grade sheet damn well better say something to the effect of, "knows his shit cold, excellent attitude, just can't quite get the hang of stick-and-rudder skills".

 

[Slammer2]

Just finished IFS today. Possibly the best 3 weeks of all the training so far. Overall I enjoyed it. Can't really say anything bad about it.

 

[dimlight85]

Again today I hear, "This is a screening process right? We're screening you which is why this is such an accelerated program" by my instructor. I did particularly poorly today. Studying and knowing things is not my problem, it's making my hands and feet do what needs to be done to accomplish those procedures.

1) aeronautical adaptability (do you freak out or barf continually in the plane?),
~No freaking out or barfing
2) academic aptitude (are you smart enough for this?)
~Passed everything academic no problem and can memorize procedures
3) work ethic (are you willing to put in the study hours to excel, or just enough to scrape by?)
~Study plenty and chair fly quite a bit--funny how I always seem to take off and land smoothly when I'm chair flying

 

[MIDNJAC]

Studying and knowing things is not my problem, it's making my hands and feet do what needs to be done to accomplish those procedures.

Get used to it my friend.....knowing the procedures/FTI is the easy part of flight school.

 

[dimlight85]

Does anyone know anything about the statement in the IFS instruction about NFO's not soloing? I was reading through it and it states,

"The SNA and SNFO are to execute the
same program except for in regards to the solo requirements.
SNFOs unable to pass the initial safe-to-solo flight shall fly​

the reminder of the solo flights dual."

Not that I don't want to solo but I was unaware of anyone ever doing this. It really only affects one of your flight lessons...well, two if you count the solo cross country. If you were doing all of your flights dual would you even do a solo cross country as your last lesson? Seems pointless since your Stage II is the same flight only with an instructor grading you.

 

[wlawr005]

I might disagree with some of you. As an SNFO, I have found IFS to be a most helpful experience in every phase of training so far, including up to VNAV's. It is far from a waste of time for SNFO's, and IIRC it wasn't a cake walk either.

I'd rather you not "crank up the heat" any more, because then the focus would be on survival, rather than on good training. Just my .02.

+1. I don't know when you learn about CRM in flight school, but if I am a pilot and I've got my head up my ass, and my NFO (who thought that VNAV and IIRC in IFS was "stupid") has his head up his ass, then chances are we are going to ball one up on some stupid night training mission.

Even as a crew chief I knew how to read a VFR chart, approach plate, back pilots up on instruments, and make radio calls. The more that the CREW knows, the longer the CREW is going to live.

Sounds like some SNFO's need to be bitch slapped...

"It's what you don't know that kills you..."

 

[MIDNJAC]

Even as a crew chief I knew how to read a VFR chart, approach plate, back pilots up on instruments, and make radio calls. The more that the CREW knows, the longer the CREW is going to live.

SNFO's get plenty of experience in all of these skills throughout flight school, in primary, intermediate and advanced. I'm sure IFS is a meaningful learning experience, but the flight school program centers around what you learn in orange and white aircraft (or blue and white for our SNFO friends).

 

[wlawr005]

... but the flight school program centers around what you learn in orange and white aircraft (or blue and white for our SNFO friends).

Que??? I agree...flight school IS about planes.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Que??? I agree...flight school IS about planes.

Maybe I misunderstood your post, but my point was that you will learn what you need to know to be safe, flight school-wise, (either as NA or NFO) in orange and whites, vice little Cessnas. Taking IFS seriously will get you in the right mindset for the rest of flight school, I'll buy that, but your IFS skills aren't going to get you too far beyond building 633. Pre-API indescretions aside, I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone in the VT/HT's not taking a portion of training seriously......the alternative is not getting wings. So in other words, I personally wouldn't read too deeply into someone's IFS performance when deciding whether or not to fly with them

 

[wlawr005]

I will agree with you to an extent...but when a student starts deciding what is and is not important to his training, said student usually misses something important along the way.

My point was, there is something valuable (either to the Navy or the students) to be gained with SNFO's attending IFS, so the whiners should shut their mouth and get it done with minimal complaining.

Besides, who else gets paid to dick around in Gen Av aircraft all day???

 

[FlyinRock]

Does anyone know anything about the statement in the IFS instruction about NFO's not soloing? I was reading through it and it states,

"The SNA and SNFO are to execute the
same program except for in regards to the solo requirements.
SNFOs unable to pass the initial safe-to-solo flight shall fly​

the reminder of the solo flights dual."

Not that I don't want to solo but I was unaware of anyone ever doing this. It really only affects one of your flight lessons...well, two if you count the solo cross country. If you were doing all of your flights dual would you even do a solo cross country as your last lesson? Seems pointless since your Stage II is the same flight only with an instructor grading you.

Ahh Grasshopper -
Be careful how you interpret that. Yes a SNFO doesn't have to do a solo but there is a PRB in between if he/she is unable or busts the safe to solo ride. Then your grades to that point will carry immense weight as well as the school recommendations. It doesn't happen very often but still there is the chance that ......... oooopppps and you are gone.
My original post still reflects the people who don't seem to think they have to apply themselves to whatever the mission requirement is. Even though its a civilian flight school, mostly conducted by non-military instructors, the mission statement does not reflect that. Your performance will.
In the literally thousand of students I have flown with, there were very, VERY few who did not have the basic aptitude or capability of at least getting to solo. Beyond that its simply improving on different skills.
I am aware of the specific instance that created this part of the training and SNFO's vs solo.
It was only a few years ago that the SNFO's did an abbreviated course of 13 hours and no solo involved. In fact, mostly they sat in the left seat and took care of Com/Nav while the CFI did the flying ala autopilot with directions from the SNFO. Very much a crew environment. If there any of those who did that short course who read this, I'd like to see your inputs.
Semper Fi from Uganda
Rocky

 

[Crowbar]

Sounds like some SNFO's need to be bitch slapped...

By you?

I'm sure there are SNFOs out there who just want to cruise through the program with minimal effort and get to wear that coveted flight suit during API. I'll let you in on a little secret. There are also SNAs out there with the same attitude. I'll let you in on another little secret. There are people in this world standing by to bitch slap those who don't take their training seriously, and they don't need your prompting to do it.

It shouldn't be the concern of the school what the Navy's purpose is with the program. They should teach everyone person who comes through their doors with the same level of concern or interest regardless of who is paying for it.

Sounds like IFS has changed since I did it. For us the focus was on the IF and not so much the S. Of course, the Navy was getting raped to the tune of about $140/hr for a 172 so the FBO was happy to have the business. At any rate, it was pretty much the way you described it. Our IFS school treated all of us like we had just walked in the door with wearing aviators and a Breitling, with rolls of cash falling out of our pockets. They left it up to the Navy to decide who did and didn't make it through. From reading threads on the subject apparently that ain't the case anymore. At the time only Pensacola Aviation Center ever attrited anybody. Hell, while I was in Pensacola, somebody banged up a plane during IFS (I forget the details) and still finished. Think that would happen now?

 

[FlyinRock]

By you?

I'm sure there are SNFOs out there who just want to cruise through the program with minimal effort and get to wear that coveted flight suit during API. I'll let you in on a little secret. There are also SNAs out there with the same attitude. I'll let you in on another little secret. There are people in this world standing by to bitch slap those who don't take their training seriously, and they don't need your prompting to do it.



Sounds like IFS has changed since I did it. For us the focus was on the IF and not so much the S. Of course, the Navy was getting raped to the tune of about $140/hr for a 172 so the FBO was happy to have the business. At any rate, it was pretty much the way you described it. Our IFS school treated all of us like we had just walked in the door with wearing aviators and a Breitling, with rolls of cash falling out of our pockets. From reading threads on the subject apparently that ain't the case anymore. At the time only Pensacola Aviation Center ever attrited anybody. Hell, while I was in Pensacola, somebody banged up a plane during IFS (I forget the details) and still finished. Think that would happen now?

*********************************
Crowbar
Hell yes it still happens but I'm not part of the PRB to decide who stays or goes. Raped to the tune of $140 hour? You don't know much about general aviation and the costs by that statement. These flight schools are in the profit making business and are lucky to get away with a 5% net profit. they are bound by the contractual agreements with the Navy and if fuel prices suddenly take a big jump, guess who takes it in the shorts? Yeah the FBO. What happens if a student prangs an airplane? Who takes it in the shorts? Yep the FBO. If a student doesn't come up to standards and does a PRB, you can bet your young ass the FBO gets feedback from IFS and sometimes it ain't very friendly.
I don't know where you did your IFS but can take a secret guess. The 2 schools I have been involved with certainly didn't have that attitude and do their best to give the training/screening asked and contracted for/with IFS.
Well, according to my Breitling its time to go ...<ggg>
Semper Fi from Uganda
Rocky

 

[Crowbar]

...

Businesses in business to make money? Well I never! Stupid finance degree didn't teach me anything.

Give me a break. Do you really think I don't know all this? Sorry I don't live up to your exacting standards but I've done pretty good so far without your "help".

 

[FlyinRock]

Oh my goodness, Good luck with your salty attitude.