I pledge . . . .

[robav8r]

The question is whether it's inappropriate according to your own values as a human being and as a leader? What do you think about it?

You’re right Brett, it is about my values and how human I am . . . now. Something you know nothing about. I saw the Navy torn apart in the wake of Tailhook, including yours truly, having to sign a page 13 saying I wasn’t at Tailhook, even though I was 800 miles east of Brazil on a deployment. Some of those patches while inappropriate now, were funny as hell back then, symbols that took the sting out of vindictive Navy leadership. It’s ok to laugh about the past, sometimes lighthearted reflection can help the obvious healing so desperately needed today . . .

 

[Brett327]

You’re right Brett, it is about my values and how human I am . . . now. Something you know nothing about. I saw the Navy torn apart in the wake of Tailhook, including yours truly, having to sign a page 13 saying I wasn’t at Tailhook, even though I was 800 miles east of Brazil on a deployment. Some of those patches while inappropriate now, were funny as hell back then, symbols that took the sting out of vindictive Navy leadership. It’s ok to laugh about the past, sometimes lighthearted reflection can help the obvious healing so desperately needed today . . .

I'm aware of the origin of the patch. I'm asking whether what was humorous then would be appropriate now according to your values. If there was a picture of you wearing the patch back then, would you show it to a group of Sailors today and proudly reminisce about how funny it was back then? If not, would it be because you feared the "PC Police," or perhaps because it might make one of those Sailors feel like a piece of garbage? Just wondering how your values might apply to a situation like that.

 

[Hair Warrior]

Only time will tell if women will be included in the draft. If I was a betting man I'd say many Americans will fight hard against it. A line will eventually have to be drawn. This issue could cause a lot more division amongst Americans.

I mean, does America want people to be treated (and paid) the same regardless of gender, or not?

Can’t have it both ways. If your typical Elle Woods from Legally Blonde doesn’t want to be a Growler pilot (which is a job absolutely open to women) in the event she is drafted during WW3, then maybe she can be a JAG, HR, PAO, or something else of use to the whole-of-nation effort that it’s going to require to defeat a peer adversary.

And if our nation’s young adults can’t meet the military standards due to drug use, physical fitness, or intellect/ character, then we’ll have plenty of needs in CONUS in govt/industry just like we did during the last world war.

 

[robav8r]

I'm aware of the origin of the patch. I'm asking whether what was humorous then would be appropriate now according to your values. If there was a picture of you wearing the patch back then, would you show it to a group of Sailors today and proudly reminisce about how funny it was back then? If not, would it be because you feared the "PC Police," or perhaps because it might make one of those Sailors feel like a piece of garbage? Just wondering how your values might apply to a situation like that.

Dude, your condescension is showing. We were both CO's, stop asking stupid questions. I was as instructor at the first maritime weapons school in the 90's. And we had, as a student, the first openly gay Sailor and AW. Remember his name? I watched this guy track USS Chicago on the SCORE range one evening and thought, "Holy shit this guy is a really good acoustic operator." At the conclusion of the course, I told him that I thought he was one of the best AW's I had seen, and I told him that's all that matters. I also still think some of the patches and shenanigans in the days immediately following Tailhook were funny as hell. Appropriate today? I'll let you continue to lecture on that topic . . .

 

[Brett327]

Seems like it should be a pretty easy question to answer definitively w/o a cringeworthy anecdote about how you were nice to a gay guy in the 90s.

Clearly, this is difficult and uncomfortable for you. I withdraw the question.

 

[robav8r]

I withdraw the question.

. . . . . mission accomplished.

 

[Mos]

This forum is quickly becoming the Real Housewives of Naval Aviation.

WRT selective service, I agree with expanding eligibility to women in the interest of equal treatment, but along with that, I think the country needs to assess the criteria for activating a draft and prohibit drafting people to fight in foreign wars. This would make future drafts unlikely.

 

[wink]

You’re right Brett, it is about my values and how human I am . . . now. Something you know nothing about. I saw the Navy torn apart in the wake of Tailhook, including yours truly, having to sign a page 13 saying I wasn’t at Tailhook, even though I was 800 miles east of Brazil on a deployment. Some of those patches while inappropriate now, were funny as hell back then, symbols that took the sting out of vindictive Navy leadership. It’s ok to laugh about the past, sometimes lighthearted reflection can help the obvious healing so desperately needed today . . .

It is notable that I never saw any of those patches on a flight jacket or flight suit. Even then, they were NSFW in my AOR of SOCAL and PACFLT. Buying them from buds with a handful was like making a drug deal. But they absolutely were a salve to the many wounds inflicted on innocent officers and tacair in general. Signing my page 13 and separately attesting that none of my subordinates were present in Vegas was the absolute lowest point in my 25 year career. My small collection of post Tailhook patches have been turned into coasters for my bar. They are just as prominent as the model aircraft and other Navy patches/coasters. They are unfortunately part of the story of my Navy career. In my home, at my bar, history is not revised or sugar coated. I am happy to provide the facts and context over a drink if anyone is interested. I believe discussing whether these sort of patches were appreciated 30 years ago and if people that did appreciate them would display them today is anachronistic and ignores what would motivate good people to create such images at that time. Time and place. Time and place.

 

[zab1001]

My small collection of post Tailhook patches have been turned into coasters for my bar.

Who did you use for the coasters and how did they come out? Pics?

 

[scoolbubba]

Seems like it should be a pretty easy question to answer definitively w/o a cringeworthy anecdote about how you were nice to a gay guy in the 90s.

Clearly, this is difficult and uncomfortable for you. I withdraw the question.

Stop sniffing your own farts your pompous arrogant prick.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

As is clearly indicated on the patch, it was designed in 1994 (still in the wake of Tailhook) and reflects the anger of the squadron members over the disestablishment of their squadron (and maybe the belief that the act was related to tailhook). Reflected in contemporary morality it is certainly not appropriate and I’m not sure if it ever made it to any flightsuit or jacket.

In the end, however, it is an artifact of a different time and should be viewed as such. If something similar were to arise today it run afoul of new regulations like the one mentioned here...https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/01/08/air-force-brass-order-removal-of-all-offensive-non-inclusive-patches-mottos-and-emblems.html

I can tell that was made to reflect the anger, but even being around back then that patch would be one I would say isn't appropriate and I don't think I would have seen it for sale on the mess decks.

 

[Hair Warrior]

WRT selective service, I agree with expanding eligibility to women in the interest of equal treatment, but along with that, I think the country needs to assess the criteria for activating a draft and prohibit drafting people to fight in foreign wars. This would make future drafts unlikely.

What’s the purpose of a draft if you can’t be drafted to fight in a foreign war?

The draft is already nonexistent. We've fought the last ~40 yrs (since Grenada) with an all-volunteer military. We need to be able to draft people for wherever the conflict might require us to operate.

If a future war were to be fought 100% in CONUS, and adults living here aren't already volunteering to defend the nation, and/or undermining the invasion in their own meaningful way (e.g. French resistance, 1940-45), then we've already lost our way of life and the Selective Service System ain't gonna save us.

 

[taxi1]

But they absolutely were a salve to the many wounds inflicted on innocent officers and tacair in general.

I was there.

I’ve thought about Tailhook a lot over the years. Some pretty horrible crimes were committed by naval officers there, unfortunately. A lot of them. Aviators, mostly. That’s the bottom line.

It is one of those failures where based on the crimes committed, heads needed to roll, yet it was hard to find the right heads. It’s like one of those incidents where every participant was just doing his job within the system and is therefore blameless, yet something bad happened. If true, if you can’t pin it on individuals, then it’s the system.

So who built and who maintained the system?

 

[squorch2]

But they absolutely were a salve to the many wounds inflicted on innocent officers and tacair in general.

Please grow tf up

 

[wink]

It is one of those failures where based on the crimes committed, heads needed to roll, yet it was hard to find the right heads. It’s like one of those incidents where every participant was just doing his job within the system and is therefore blameless, yet something bad happened. If true, if you can’t pin it on individuals, then it’s the system

I disagree with this. GULITY individuals needed to be held to account. No need for heads to roll beyond that. That the NIS and big Navy did not have the time, talent, resources and leadership to deal with it the way any LE agency might does not justify how it was handled. Using the Navy's approach to Tailhook would have the FBI rolling up every black person in a community after a BLM protest went sideways.