House passes aviation safety bill in response to Buffalo crash

[nittany03]

http://www.thetelegraph.com/news/praises-43191-bill-provisions.html

So apparently you'll need 1,500hrs and an ATP to be a first officer as well as a captain, and they want to strengthened the requirements to get an ATP as well. Stand by for your ticket prices to go up anyway, though I supposed the flight-instructing and banner-towing markets are about to get saturated.

 

[fc2spyguy]

H.R. 5900 was introduced after many congressional hearings and roundtable discussions, and with input from the families of those who perished in the Colgan Flight 3407 accident in Buffalo, pilot groups, airlines, the National Safety Transportation Board, the Department of Transportation Inspector General, and Members of Congress.

Ok, everyone else on this list makes sense, but I don't see what beneficial input families involved in a crash could possibly give to help safety in the aviation world. Maybe the whole, who is actually flying, but if someone realizes it's not actually delta flying them, are they going to go over to delta for the more expensive air fare? I would be willing to bet that a very large majority of the people don't care who is flying if the ticket is cheaper.

 

[ryan1234]

I don't really, really see a lot of relevance to the Buffalo crash.... the FO had like 2200 hours or something.

It's a great thing to have the mins over what they are now - but I don't think it'll be the "Fix-all" that everyone seems to be looking for. Quality of time is also arguable. I guess it's a good thing overall -

It'll be interesting to hear from A4s on this one

 

[Swanee]

I don't really, really see a lot of relevance to the Buffalo crash.... the FO had like 2200 hours or something.

It's a great thing to have the mins over what they are now - but I don't think it'll be the "Fix-all" that everyone seems to be looking for. Quality of time is also arguable. I guess it's a good thing overall -

It'll be interesting to hear from A4s on this one

I'd take the guy who has 800 hours of "quality" time, landings in austere conditions, tough flying conditions, etc... over 1500 hours of VFR Milton to Crestview...

 

[nittany03]

Yeah, but when you hire guys with minimum time to work for fry-jockey wages, well, you get what you pay for. They may understand Throttles - MAX THRUST, Landing Gear - UP, AFTER AIRBORNE, and Autopilot - ENGAGE. But when the fecal matter hits the rotating gas movement apparatus, $20,000/yr won't buy you the talent you need to extricate the aircraft from the situation.

 

[HAL Pilot]

There are many reasons I don't let my daughter fly on the regional airlines. Pilot inexperience being the top. I also wonder about the judgement of someone who pays $50k for his training to accept a $20k/year job. (Which is why I never flew for a regional.)

 

[MasterBates]

And reason #1 why unless shit changes dramatically, I'm not going to the regionals when I get out in a year and a half.

 

[ryan1234]

I'd take the guy who has 800 hours of "quality" time, landings in austere conditions, tough flying conditions, etc... over 1500 hours of VFR Milton to Crestview...

Exactly - all the hours in the world won't help if you consistently fail checkrides. An alternative answer may have been to drastically raise the certification requirements/standards on the Commercial/ATP level.

 

[usmarinemike]

Exactly - all the hours in the world won't help if you consistently fail checkrides. An alternative answer may have been to drastically raise the certification requirements/standards on the Commercial/ATP level.

What are you talking about? Quantity is always a superior value to quantity. Geez, you're so Busch League.




I say not only raise the bar with tougher standards, but implement a limit to how many times you can fail a checkride before the FAA won't let you take it again. THAT would raise some eyebrows.

 

[FlyBoyd]

Ok, everyone else on this list makes sense, but I don't see what beneficial input families involved in a crash could possibly give to help safety in the aviation world.

Seems eerily similar to a trial and victim impact statements that affect length of sentence but in this case it affected the strength of the change to the requirments.

Maybe the whole, who is actually flying, but if someone realizes it's not actually delta flying them, are they going to go over to delta for the more expensive air fare? I would be willing to bet that a very large majority of the people don't care who is flying if the ticket is cheaper.

Interesting twist...what if the mainline was responsible for their feeders? http://www.buffalonews.com/incoming/article70779.ece

 

[Recovering LSO]

There are many reasons I don't let my daughter fly on the regional airlines. Pilot inexperience being the top. I also wonder about the judgement of someone who pays $50k for his training to accept a $20k/year job. (Which is why I never flew for a regional.)

+1. I think there is also an overriding lack of professionalism, or at least the perception of. Take a look at the guys driving you around next time you board your regional prop. I realize a wrinkled shirt and crappy haircut a good pilot does not make, but c'mon. Someone else already wrote that when you're paying $25k a year, you're gonna get what you pay for - so true.

I recently completed a considerable amount of research and wrote 20+ pages for a graduate class about regional carriers and their safety records - I too avoid flying on them and so should you! To say that its a matter of luck that there haven't been more "Colgans" is an understatement.

Now that everyone requires 1500+ hours and an ATP - is this going to do anything other than further water down the quality of hours that these kids are racking up? On numerous lay overs I've struck up conversation in a food court or at the gate with young crew. Its always very scary to listen to them tell me how much flight time they have and how they got it - and how much they had when they were hired.

To the legislation - more experience in adverse weather will be required. Are these guys gonna have to pay someone to let them fly around in icing and low ceiling/vis?

 

[phrogdriver]

It seems like a pretty knee-jerk reaction to me. It certainly wasn't well thought-out. Maybe it will shake out some of those who are less committed to becoming professional pilots and thereby dry up some of the excess of pilots trying to get hired. It could help drive wages up, at least a little.

 

[Jim123]

To the legislation - more experience in adverse weather will be required. Are these guys gonna have to pay someone to let them fly around in icing

So I'm not the only one who read that part and wondered the same thing. I'm not questioning the safety aspect (properly equipped aircraft are, after all, just that), but feasibility? Maybe we'll start seeing "icing flying school" ads next to "mountain flying school" ads in magazines and on websites. Or maybe all of the pilot mills will have to maintain one or two line trainers, certified for flight in some level of known icing, and have an "icing fam" ("weather permitting") syllabus even to knock out the requirement. Would that be icing in cruise flight, terminal phase, or...?

and low ceiling/vis?

I don't think I've misunderstood the present ATP requirements- minimum actual instrument conditions experience of 0 is setting the bar kinda low.

Not to say that in reality some or most green ATPs have flown in at least some real weather, or that some pilot training programs are more robust than others, but- when it comes down it the HMFIC stick monkey can have logged exactly 75.0 on the "foggles," junior next to him is working his way there, and that's legally good to go? I'm not a fan of big government and more legislation as the solution to all problems, but hmmm...

 

[ryan1234]

Now that everyone requires 1500+ hours and an ATP - is this going to do anything other than further water down the quality of hours that these kids are racking up?

Great point - There will probably be a huge flood of everyone becoming a CFI to grab the hours. ....which is another topic altogether.... CFI inbreeding... A ~250hr CFI disperses his/her 250 hour, 172 mostly VFR controlled conditions, aeronautical wisdom on future pilots who then go on to become CFIs - who then teach others, etc,etc.... The goal of most, not all, CFIs is to build enough time to get a better job (i.e. flying a shiny regional jet)

Most of you probably know this but.... An MEI (Multi Engine Instructor) is only required to have 15 hours of Multi Engine PIC before instructing others how to fly a multi-engine airplane.

It would be nice to see part 135 freight/pax and/or military be an experience requirement for part 121.

 

[ryan1234]

Well fellas.... looks like there's a loop hole for the pilot academia institutions out there to get their paying customers hired prior to the 1500 hours:

(d) Credit Toward Flight Hours- The Administrator may allow specific academic training courses, beyond those required under subsection (b)(2), to be credited toward the total flight hours required under subsection (c). The Administrator may allow such credit based on a determination by the Administrator that allowing a pilot to take specific academic training courses will enhance safety more than requiring the pilot to fully comply with the flight hours requirement

Guess ERAU and others got their way!