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Hmm, helos are more involved in combat?

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
I tend to agree with the article's premise. Purely on a resources standpoint, if we can stop a good percentage of brownout-related helo crashes with a relatively small investment, the return is far greater on a marginal basis than the same money put in some F/W survivability initiative.

There are also some bigger questions it raises about the nature of the wars we plan to fight in the future. Low- and mid-intensity conflicts will rely heavily on heloborne lift and fires. High-intensity conflicts will be more weighted towards f/w. If the present is any indicator of the future, one could ask the question of why we are investing billions on low-observable aircraft that end up being JDAM trucks, while starving the aircraft that are doing most of the heavy lifting.
 

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
Lost me here...
"No military equipment has been more pivotal for U.S. forces in the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere over the last decade than rotorcraft..."

I think you could make a pretty strong argument that airborne ISR has also been pretty pivotal...but the author doesn't seem interested in defending this position, he just sorta leaves it hanging out there. I think that maybe " no more integral part of operations " might be valid...I don't think we could conceive of a ground war anymore, without the battlefield mobility that helicopters provide. However, that's nothing new. The same has been true since the Vietnam era, and despite the decried lack of innovation since, we seem to be able to do what we need.
The author goes on to make several valid points, namely, that most cutting edge R&D is dedicated to fixed wing acquisition programs. However, he seems almost purposefully ignorant of the reasons behind some of the choices we've made with statements like this:

"Our military leaders -- and the public -- should demand the same level of technology in their vertical flight assets as they do in their fighters and bombers."

The simple fact is that what drives battlefield technological innovation is the need to maintain a capabilities advantage over some adversary. An arms race if you will. We don't just do them to do them. The F-22 and F-35 programs, boondoggles that they are, are driven by the need to maintain a decisive capabilities advantage over the rapidly modernizing Chinese F-10, F-11 and SU-30 MKK type aircraft. Where is the similar threat to our battlefield capability that would dictate a technological revision of the Apache/Longbow series? Ditto with any rotorcraft in the arsenal...Sure, longer legs on the -60 might be great and a faster CSAR platform could be useful, but where is the demand signal?
Similarly, the rotorcraft industry isn't receiving a demand signal from the private sector either...the author decries a lack of government funding that precludes cost-effective innovation but lest we forget, civilians and other nations buy helicopters too...The simple fact is, the product (Comanche etc...) doesn't exist because nobody needs it.
I think the best point in the article is why we aren't funding research to combat things like brownout and general battlefield SA enhancements. These things are the reason, as the article points out, that helos experience mishaps. How about a device which detects energized power lines based on the EMF emissions? Goggle that see through dust? This is R&D with a demonstrated market and demand that will really save lives and dollars...Comanche? Please...
 

LFCFan

*Insert nerd wings here*
Lost me here...


Similarly, the rotorcraft industry isn't receiving a demand signal from the private sector either....


I think the best point in the article is why we aren't funding research to combat things like brownout and general battlefield SA enhancements. These things are the reason, as the article points out, that helos experience mishaps. How about a device which detects energized power lines based on the EMF emissions? Goggle that see through dust? This is R&D with a demonstrated market and demand that will really save lives and dollars...Comanche? Please...

I also think that such technology would see demand in the private sector as well, not just the US and allied militaries. I could certainly see civilian SAR and firefighting helos making use of it.
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
Start your clocks.... Three. Two. One... "my aircraft is more important..." "no, my aircraft is more important..." Let it begin :(
 

Scoob

If you gotta problem, yo, I'll be part of it.
pilot
Contributor
If you want the real truth, the most pivotal aircraft in these wars has probably been the C-17.

Everything simply would come to a screeching halt within a week without them.
More accurately, everything would come to a screeching halt without the DoDAACs to ensure the AF got paid....
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
I think the best point in the article is why we aren't funding research to combat things like brownout and general battlefield SA enhancements. These things are the reason, as the article points out, that helos experience mishaps. How about a device which detects energized power lines based on the EMF emissions? Goggle that see through dust? This is R&D with a demonstrated market and demand that will really save lives and dollars...Comanche? Please...

Most of the article could be considered fluff but this is the meat and potatoes of his argument. Why aren't the funds appropriated for fixing that which is killing us the most? Brownout and low-level CFIT have contributed to a lot of crashes. Except for a very few special units, the funds aren't there for all the gucci stuff that exists to help alleviate the hazards of that type of flying. I think that's what he was getting at, as making a (traditional) helo fly faster than ~180-200 knots is pretty much aerodynamically impossible.
 

Renegade One

Well-Known Member
None
I tend to agree with the article's premise. Purely on a resources standpoint, if we can stop a good percentage of brownout-related helo crashes with a relatively small investment, the return is far greater on a marginal basis than the same money put in some F/W survivability initiative.

There are also some bigger questions it raises about the nature of the wars we plan to fight in the future. Low- and mid-intensity conflicts will rely heavily on heloborne lift and fires. High-intensity conflicts will be more weighted towards f/w. If the present is any indicator of the future, one could ask the question of why we are investing billions on low-observable aircraft that end up being JDAM trucks, while starving the aircraft that are doing most of the heavy lifting.
Color me "me too".

RW seems to have: (1) an incredible ROI for what I perceive has been "marginal investment" over time, (2) a near-to irreplaceable role in many of the most likely scenarios, and (3) well, crap, lemme call a spade a spade…it was RW that pulled my young ass out of the water one dark night. Only option might have been motor whale boats. Would have worked for me…not sure it would have been in time for my pilot. C-17s would have been nowhere in sight…, and (4) I'm not at all familiar with the myriad "overland" issues, but I'm convinced.

I totally get the part about C-17s and "all else" [stealth, high-tech, SPECOPS capabilities not shared with the non-SOF communities, (fill in your favorite blank…)] having their place and incredible value.

Don't know what CFIT impacts might be..understand the acronym…but the whole thing about "brown outs" always takes me back to DESERT ONE and the end of the mission.
 

lowflier03

So no $hit there I was
pilot
It is honestly sad how far behind RW is compared to FW and the disparity in investment. We can't get anything for CFIT, moving maps, terrain following radar, decent weapons, etc. Hell, fighters in WW2 had lead computing gunsights, and now you can look at a target over your shoulder with JHMCS and shoot it, but helos are still doing grease pencils and crappy nvd HUDS. Dont even get started on the actual disparity between the weapon systems. Anyone who knows about the Torp fiasco knows what I mean. If you gave Hornet guys the same weapon capabilities or engagement parameters/restrictions that we have, they would laugh at you. And of course when it comes to flight hours and fuel money, everyone wants to cut helo OPTAR first. Yet we burn in a year what an airwing dumps in a day of flight ops....

Unfortunately helos just arent sexy enough and dont have enough weight at the Flag level, so I dont see it changing anytime soon.
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
Don't know what CFIT impacts might be..understand the acronym…but the whole thing about "brown outs" always takes me back to DESERT ONE and the end of the mission.
HUGE delta between training/experience of Desert One and today. However, the systems are still essentially the same... Which gets us back to the crux of the original article. The big head shed wouldn't in a million years consider sending a FW aviator to what is essentially a 0/0 ILS approach, WITHOUT an ILS installed and expect him to survive/thrive. But yet, they're willing to do just that with a RW crew that's carrying pax in back. Worst night of my life in Iraq, I had to wave off three times because of brownout. However, failure was not an option and I finally landed on my fourth attempt. Meanwhile, in the overhead was a section of F/A-18s watching us on their advanced targeting pod.
Unfortunately helos just arent sexy enough and dont have enough weight at the Flag level, so I dont see it changing anytime soon.
Yep. Of course, the USMC values it's RW assets more than the Navy I think, which has lead to some awesome capabilities with the AH-1Z and UH-1Y. I worked on the 53K contract, and there's a ton of software (we jokingly called it the robo chopper) to help out the aircrew, and RVLs were a huge discussion/development point...
 
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