MasterBates
Well-Known Member
@ Rob, When I left HSL in 06, we were flying goggles pretty heavily at home, and almost exclusively deployed. Just the occasional unaided for unaided night currency.
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HCS-5 Re-established
- Thread starter bubblehead
- Start date
Rob, I dunno the answer to that, they didn't elaborate any more than what I put in the post. I have no knowledge of the HSL/HSM world other than what I saw on cruise, which was entirely overwater, so perhaps it has to do with overland CSAR/SOF stuff? That's just a guess on my part though.
I suppose with the popularity of those billets nowadays those two squadrons can be picky if they want and take guys that have more experience than others in the overland environment. Might not be fair but he who holds the billets make the rules.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
I went overland with HSL in Iraq. Might not have been the norm, but we were not the only det doing it either.
We know HS trains for PR.. But there is worlds difference between canned training rescuing a dude stranded in Dare or Pinecastle and actual flying in country.
We know HS trains for PR.. But there is worlds difference between canned training rescuing a dude stranded in Dare or Pinecastle and actual flying in country.
Not disagreeing with you on that, but I have heard that time to train a F/H/S guy to the 84/85 standard is less than a B/R guy, so that may be why.
Speaking with guys I know they have not been happy with the extra time to train a B/R guy over HSC. Probably has to do with the fact that at least legacy guys easily spend 2 of their 3 years at their first sea command working on the PR/SOF skillset in order to obtain lvl 3. Sure you can teach anyone to do it, but getting them comfortable Lowlight, close to the ground is a different story.
Since the HSL/M leadership is adamant that LAMPS will NOT fly overland if there is even the possible hint of a threat, there is a lot of training (unprepared LZ's, LZ tactics, defensive maneuvering, Etc.) that a typical HSL/M pilot has never been exposed to during his/her career that is required to fly with 84/85.
Even PMC HSC guys are, for the most part, trained to LVL III in at least a few mission areas and will probably add more when they return from cruise. Part of the core SWTP syllabus is Day/night tacform and day/night gun patterns (two ship). The vast majority of follow on SWTP training for HSC is two ship. Just the fact that the average HSC guys is already familiar with form operations is probably nice to have. If they have familiarity with SOF and PR that's just more familiarity with the type of missions 84/85 conducts.
It isn't rocket science, but an HSC level III guy has the night form /night unprepared landing reps by the time he completes his first tour. You don't find that in the HSL folks, and as such, it takes a significant investment for training for a 2-2.5 year tour. It isn't cronyism - it is just what the squadron and the Navy needs to do to support the tasking.
BL: You have to be able to land the first time, every time, in formation at night.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Depends on what it was for. I used to do a lot of NVG low levels coupled with FLIR searches for 'hajis' (deer, I used my training flights to scout for deer hunting spots), evadees (turkeys, again, more scouting) and the occasional CAL for overland training. Commodore was kind of iffy on unprepared LZs due to guys pranging the radome under the cockpit. Did some practice gun patterns as well if 'hajis' were found.
I'm not sure what the current overland stuff is.
I'm not sure what the current overland stuff is.
Compare that to how we do it in HS world, or at least our squadron. On our terfs it's get to the LZ's and land land land land, do some gun patterns and other maneuvers, form land land land land, and fill in FLIR work, form maneuvers, etc, on the routes out to the LZ's and back home.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
We were NATOPS restricted from Night Form (no form lights) so night form for us was a no go.
Maybe I'm just odd, but I've jumped into "foreign to me" airframes and done fairly well coming up to speed quickly, like night forms, TACFORM, etc.
But then again, I'm awesome.
Maybe I'm just odd, but I've jumped into "foreign to me" airframes and done fairly well coming up to speed quickly, like night forms, TACFORM, etc.
But then again, I'm awesome.
You actually were never restricted from Night Form. Ironically it didn't prohibit that (or if it did, it was from a long ago Natops). The irony was that people equated flying at night in form with TACFORM, which weren't the same thing. The AFC for the chem lights has been around since I was a JO. Then again, the East Coast didn't even want to acknowledge night TACFORM until 2 years-ish ago. And when they had a qualified pilot to get their SWTI's up to speed (me), they decided to do their own thing and I expired. Well played.
Serious question...
After two MEUs and watching chopper TACFORM briefs a few times for personal amusement, why is such an administrative thing (at least to TACAIR) treated as a major event in rotor-land? We don't even brief TACFORM outside of "be in _____ (formation)." How to make the turns and what the positions are is learned in the jet VTs and tweaked in the RAG. I don't mean it as a knock, but I'm genuinely curious why formation flying briefs are treated like a big deal. Granted, this is a Navy chopper thread and my experiences have been with Marine choppers, but it seems to be present on the blue side as well based on your remarks.
/the snark comes free with the serious question.
//chopper