Xtndr50boom
Voted 8.9 average on the Hot-or-Not scale
I couldn't agree more
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Hands Free Refueling
- Thread starter Flash
- Start date
I couldn't agree more
In the effort to further derail a pointy-nose thread w/ helo talk... Skid, it's been a while, which is why I ask: Can Snakes land on 3a or is it just the Hueys? Seems like a nice place to go and it's out of the way of everything.
Something you can talk about on this thread?
Xtndr50boom
Voted 8.9 average on the Hot-or-Not scale
Depends on which one you want--The USMC event from ~1985 or the USN (IIRC) one from ~ 2 years ago?
Can you give us as much as you can on both?
Xtndr50boom
Voted 8.9 average on the Hot-or-Not scale
Sure. WARNING-LONG READ AHEAD
1985/86
Two KC-10s take off from Seymour Johnson AFB, NC with one hour spacing scheduled to take 12 USMC A-4s from Cherry Point (IIRC) to somewhere in Europe w/ a RON in Lajes. Tankers enter holding after fighters delay. 2 hours and 50K later the fighters take off, fuel has enough play and Lajes weather is/forecast excellent so fighter lead decides to continue.
An hour or so after PED Lajes weather turns to crap. Flights continue to Lajes. Flight enters holding over the island and start fuel conserving, ie, A/R at FL340, slower speeds, etc. Around this time the other tanker and it's 6 chicks enters holding over the island. The two KC-10s refuel each other to equalize fuel loads. Fuel is at emergency, weather lifts enough at Santa Maria IAP (Lajes is still crap) to shoot an ILS approach. Fighters inform tanker they don't have ILS equipment. Someone figures out that if the tanker has a fighter on each wing they can get down to mins and have the A-4s land while the 10 goes missed approach. One of the A-4s crash on the approach end of the runway. Field closed. KC-10 lands anyway and proceeds to fuel pits, where they load up as much fuel as they can in 45 minutes. At Lajes, a USMC KC-130 takes off 0/0 and meets up with the 2 or 4 A-4s from that first flight and either lands with them on the wings or takes them to Spain.
Meanwhile, the other 10 and it's fighters are running their ditching checklists and taking on 1K apiece to keep from flaming out. Tanker has about 15K left but tells the fighters they'll share until they run out. Other KC-10 leaves it's crew chiefs on the ground (time) and taxi to the runway. Tower says negative: Field closed. 10 crew flips them the bird and takes off anyway. By the time they hook up the tanker is about 10 minutes from ditching and the fighters right behind them. They hook up for a quick 20K while the fighters come back in for some more. The two tankers and fighters head for Spain, knowing they don't have enough fuel to make it but hoping for the best. An hour or two from feet dry the flight meets up with an ALERT KC-10 from Ziragoza AB, Spain, tops off, and lands safely. SAC and the AF wants to fry the crew for endangering the aircraft, crew, taking off w/o a clearance, and alot more stuff. MC Commandant decorates the crew personally and the AF backs off. The crew ended up winning the Mackay Trophy or something of that sort for the mission.
This one is a little sketchier since it happened at my last base after I'd PCS'd. I heard about it from an evaluator in my old squadron who's now here in Norcal.
~2 years ago, two KC-10s take off from McGuire on basically the same mission as before. This time with either USN or USMC F-18s. The same thing happens, weather goes to sh1t after the PED. Tankers hold over Lajes. One of the tankers (from my old squadron, DUCERS!!) tells his fighters they'll share all the fuel with them. BUT, the other tanker, from the crap-heap known as the 32d Air Refueling Squadron, says "peace out" to their fighters and heads to Spain.
So one tanker and 8 (IIRC) F-18s are left airborne. KC-10 manages to land after a few missed approaches, hits the fuel pits, and takes back off after the Air Mobility Command 4 star gives the crew a blanket waiver: Crew duty day, weather mins, EVERYTHING waived! 10 crew takes off, heads for Spain, and hits a tanker from Mildenhall or Moron and gets the fighters to land. Crew didn't have to pay for drinks and get decorated from the CNO or the Commandant. The other crew, as big of pieces of sh1t they are, were within their rights: The only mission where the tanker is REQUIRED to give up all their gas is for SIOP-nuclear war. But that's what you get when the B-team is playing. They were afraid of being fried by higher-ups
Written as best remembered from memory
Incidentally. I remember during a sim session about 5 years ago one of the Boeing instructors gave us this scenario and asked us if we thought it was plausible. None of us said yes, then he gave us the award package written and said that we're the last step between fliers and their ejection seat handle at best and the grim reaper at worst. Sobering thoughts for a 19 year old kid
1985/86
Two KC-10s take off from Seymour Johnson AFB, NC with one hour spacing scheduled to take 12 USMC A-4s from Cherry Point (IIRC) to somewhere in Europe w/ a RON in Lajes. Tankers enter holding after fighters delay. 2 hours and 50K later the fighters take off, fuel has enough play and Lajes weather is/forecast excellent so fighter lead decides to continue.
An hour or so after PED Lajes weather turns to crap. Flights continue to Lajes. Flight enters holding over the island and start fuel conserving, ie, A/R at FL340, slower speeds, etc. Around this time the other tanker and it's 6 chicks enters holding over the island. The two KC-10s refuel each other to equalize fuel loads. Fuel is at emergency, weather lifts enough at Santa Maria IAP (Lajes is still crap) to shoot an ILS approach. Fighters inform tanker they don't have ILS equipment. Someone figures out that if the tanker has a fighter on each wing they can get down to mins and have the A-4s land while the 10 goes missed approach. One of the A-4s crash on the approach end of the runway. Field closed. KC-10 lands anyway and proceeds to fuel pits, where they load up as much fuel as they can in 45 minutes. At Lajes, a USMC KC-130 takes off 0/0 and meets up with the 2 or 4 A-4s from that first flight and either lands with them on the wings or takes them to Spain.
Meanwhile, the other 10 and it's fighters are running their ditching checklists and taking on 1K apiece to keep from flaming out. Tanker has about 15K left but tells the fighters they'll share until they run out. Other KC-10 leaves it's crew chiefs on the ground (time) and taxi to the runway. Tower says negative: Field closed. 10 crew flips them the bird and takes off anyway. By the time they hook up the tanker is about 10 minutes from ditching and the fighters right behind them. They hook up for a quick 20K while the fighters come back in for some more. The two tankers and fighters head for Spain, knowing they don't have enough fuel to make it but hoping for the best. An hour or two from feet dry the flight meets up with an ALERT KC-10 from Ziragoza AB, Spain, tops off, and lands safely. SAC and the AF wants to fry the crew for endangering the aircraft, crew, taking off w/o a clearance, and alot more stuff. MC Commandant decorates the crew personally and the AF backs off. The crew ended up winning the Mackay Trophy or something of that sort for the mission.
This one is a little sketchier since it happened at my last base after I'd PCS'd. I heard about it from an evaluator in my old squadron who's now here in Norcal.
~2 years ago, two KC-10s take off from McGuire on basically the same mission as before. This time with either USN or USMC F-18s. The same thing happens, weather goes to sh1t after the PED. Tankers hold over Lajes. One of the tankers (from my old squadron, DUCERS!!) tells his fighters they'll share all the fuel with them. BUT, the other tanker, from the crap-heap known as the 32d Air Refueling Squadron, says "peace out" to their fighters and heads to Spain.
So one tanker and 8 (IIRC) F-18s are left airborne. KC-10 manages to land after a few missed approaches, hits the fuel pits, and takes back off after the Air Mobility Command 4 star gives the crew a blanket waiver: Crew duty day, weather mins, EVERYTHING waived! 10 crew takes off, heads for Spain, and hits a tanker from Mildenhall or Moron and gets the fighters to land. Crew didn't have to pay for drinks and get decorated from the CNO or the Commandant. The other crew, as big of pieces of sh1t they are, were within their rights: The only mission where the tanker is REQUIRED to give up all their gas is for SIOP-nuclear war. But that's what you get when the B-team is playing. They were afraid of being fried by higher-ups
Written as best remembered from memory
Incidentally. I remember during a sim session about 5 years ago one of the Boeing instructors gave us this scenario and asked us if we thought it was plausible. None of us said yes, then he gave us the award package written and said that we're the last step between fliers and their ejection seat handle at best and the grim reaper at worst. Sobering thoughts for a 19 year old kid
it was Marine Hornets from BFT
Sure. WARNING-LONG READ AHEAD
1985/86
Two KC-10s ........They were afraid of being fried by higher-ups
Written as best remembered from memory
Incidentally. I remember during a sim session about 5 years ago one of the Boeing instructors gave us this scenario and asked us if we thought it was plausible. None of us said yes, then he gave us the award package written and said that we're the last step between fliers and their ejection seat handle at best and the grim reaper at worst. Sobering thoughts for a 19 year old kid
Thanks for the stories, sounds like some of the tanker guys I know. I know a few that were great and some not so good. The best story I can remember from Prowlers was about a crew trying to get a tanker to turn on its lights near the beginning of OEF and the tanker crew refused, SOP was lights out. One of the crew, who trained us on NVG's, said it degenrated into a yelling match over the radio.
The guys who got us to DC on the way home from OIF were good sh!t though.......
Thanks for the stories, sounds like some of the tanker guys I know. I know a few that were great and some not so good. The best story I can remember from Prowlers was about a crew trying to get a tanker to turn on its lights near the beginning of OEF and the tanker crew refused, SOP was lights out. One of the crew, who trained us on NVG's, said it degenrated into a yelling match over the radio.
I would love to have heard that conversation. Trying to direct reason towards a bureaucratic automaton.
Brett
GT Propjock
Registered User
I would love to have heard that conversation. Trying to direct reason towards a bureaucratic automaton.
Brett
An airman as a bureaucratic automation.......'gasp'
Xtndr50boom
Voted 8.9 average on the Hot-or-Not scale
I would love to have heard that conversation. Trying to direct reason towards a bureaucratic automaton.
Brett
Yeah, cause USN/USMC pilots and backseaters are always voices of intelligence and reason :icon_roll. When you're flying over mountains at 15K and above and you're at 18-20 with no flares or warning equipment and some yahoo wants you to turn on your christmas lights giving Ahmed a great SA-7 shot at your airliner filled with 340K of JP-8, you might understand our viewpoint.
Sorta funny, we had no problems getting gas from a tanker that only had his captain's (sorry, LT's) bars on dim. I'd think you guys could do it without *****ing and moaning. It's not like you don't have a probe light or anything
Xtndr50boom
Voted 8.9 average on the Hot-or-Not scale
Just like every community
The guys who got us to DC on the way home from OIF were good sh!t though.......
Even if they're bad, they're still great if they get you home
The altitude was a lot higher than that, try in the 20's, and the tanker was not in the track they were suppose to be in, or in any track for that matter......
....so the Prowler had to go looking for them without radar, NVG's or any radar control. With quickly dwindling fuel they could either get gas or punch out, and the tanker guys wouldn't turn a light on for them? Eh, you gotta do what you gotta do to bring you buddies home. And I sat in the front-right seat of the Prowler, sometimes, not always a back-seater...........Maybe if they had a Nav instead of two stick monkeys they would have been in the right place at the right time....... P.S. EP-3 flew at 20k in-country without any flares or any other counter-measures....
Just like every community
Even if they're bad, they're still great if they get you home
What Flash said. Don't get all bent out of shape just because you guys didn't get the memo. It's called "government time."
Brett