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Greenland

Brett327 said:
Something that was brought up on another platform is that we would immediately lose access to every base we have in Europe, or at least be in a very precarious position there. Of course, none of this has been thought through by the WH. Rota, Moron, Aviano - gone, Naples - gone, Sig - gone, Souda Bay - gone, every base in Germany and the UK - gone, BMD bases in Poland & Romania - gone, Keflavik - gone, EUCOM HQ - gone. All that for some fucking mineral rights? Complete absurdity.
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I think in general the MAGA crowd sees those bases as the US "protecting" Europe out of the kindness of our hearts and values and at the cost of our checkbook without any understanding that they are strategically critical for our own interests military and otherwise, and often well beyond Europe.
 
Brett327 said:
Something that was brought up on another platform is that we would immediately lose access to every base we have in Europe, or at least be in a very precarious position there. Of course, none of this has been thought through by the WH. Rota, Moron, Aviano - gone, Naples - gone, Sig - gone, Souda Bay - gone, every base in Germany and the UK - gone, BMD bases in Poland & Romania - gone, Keflavik - gone, EUCOM HQ - gone. All that for some fucking mineral rights? Complete absurdity.
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It wouldn't be a unified response--much messier, and therefore better for Putin.

Germany MIGHT close US bases, but highly unlikely that Poland would. And so European NATO is further fractured, which would be debilitating to the European support to Ukraine.

It's not hard to see who wins big with these shenanigans.
 
DanMa1156 said:
I think in general the MAGA crowd sees those bases as the US "protecting" Europe out of the kindness of our hearts and values and at the cost of our checkbook without any understanding that they are strategically critical for our own interests military and otherwise, and often well beyond Europe.
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A quarter of the active US Army is in a nearly decade long rotational cycle of to protect the eastern flank, and it is eroding readiness and retention in ways that white papers are written about.

Pretending that NATO partner nations like Germany haven’t actively taken advantage of the US bearing the cost of the collective protection is just ignoring the actual truth which pre-Trump 16 that was a bipartisan view. They’ve got a years long road to go on spending and efforts to try and rectify that situation.
 
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IRfly said:
It wouldn't be a unified response--much messier, and therefore better for Putin.

Germany MIGHT close US bases, but highly unlikely that Poland would. And so European NATO is further fractured, which would be debilitating to the European support to Ukraine.

It's not hard to see who wins big with these shenanigans.
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I mean, how much bigger could Russia have already won if Obama let them invade Ukraine in 2014 and then they invaded again in 2022 under Biden.
 
IRfly said:
It wouldn't be a unified response--much messier, and therefore better for Putin.

Germany MIGHT close US bases, but highly unlikely that Poland would. And so European NATO is further fractured, which would be debilitating to the European support to Ukraine.
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Do folks not realize that violating not one but two treaties we have signed it basically invalidates every piece of paper we have ever signed as a country? Every treaty, trade agreement and defense pact would be worthless, to include treaties with countries like Japan and the Philippines and even our closest allies, the 'Five Eyes'.

Why would anyone, from Poland to Singapore and everyone in between, ever trust us again? Are people really that stupid not to see that?

Lawman said:
A quarter of the active US Army is in a nearly decade long rotational cycle of to protect the eastern flank, and it is eroding readiness and retention in ways that white papers are written about.
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If a 6-7000 troop rotation to Europe is taking up a 'quarter of the Army' and 'eroding readiness and retention' that sounds a bit more like an Army problem.

Even then, none of that in any way justifies getting into a conflict with a longstanding close ally who has done nothing to against this country.
 
Yardstick said:
I mean, how much bigger could Russia have already won if Obama let them invade Ukraine in 2014 and then they invaded again in 2022 under Biden.
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Plenty to criticize with both Obama and Biden. But my guy, (and I'll use small words)

Donald Trump is right now the president of the United States.

We are talking about the decisions of the person who is president right now.

Also, Russia is not winning at all, let alone winning big, lol. But they'll be in a much better position if NATO gets obliterated and the EU splinters.
 
IRfly said:
Plenty to criticize with both Obama and Biden. But my guy, (and I'll use small words)

Donald Trump is right now the president of the United States.

We are talking about the decisions of the person who is president right now.

Also, Russia is not winning at all, let alone winning big, lol. But they'll be in a much better position if NATO gets obliterated and the EU splinters.
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Also, although Condoleezza Rice was very hawkish about Russia, President Bush did not have them listed as top threat. There was a brief period from the end of the cold war through 2012-ish where we thought it'd be possible to fold Russia into the world order.

Point being is that I also hate the whataboutisms because it completely ignores trends that transcend administrations and political parties.
 
Flash said:
Why would anyone, from Poland to Singapore and everyone in between, ever trust us again? Are people really that stupid not to see that?
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Yeah, I'm stupid. Ok, dear.

Poland in particular is in a bit of bind: they've invested heavily in US armaments (largest FMS customer in the world) which include not only yet-to-be fulfilled contracts on major weapons systems, but also maintenance, sustainment, and training on systems they already have. US firms are also under contract to build civilian nuclear reactors here. At this point, maybe they wish they weren't so heavily invested in the US. But they are.

And what's the alternative? Germany, the country that tried to exterminate Poland a couple of generations ago and whose chancellor (Schroeder) retired from public life to become Putin's bitch?

The US taking action against Greenland/Denmark would be a huge political wedge issue between the right and center-left wings of Polish politics. But shut down US bases and kick US troops out? No way--not in the foreseeable future.

Polacy of all political stripes trust in one thing: that US soldiers on Polish soil are the surest guarantee against outright Russian aggression, and they'll do whatever they can to keep them here. AEGIS ashore they'll keep for as long as they possibly can. They'd probably welcome US personnel kicked out of other countries.

They don't trust the USA. They'll just make what they see as the least bad choice at the moment. I suspect many others will do the same.
 
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