Future of flying (f-35/p-8 questions)

[mbraesicke]

I've done some searches, both on AW and google, and cant seem to find any good info. I've got a few questions that i'll go ahead and list to make it easier.

1)From what I've seen, the F-35 will be in service in 2012 (unless its pushed back to 2014 like some sources are saying). Assuming that it is in 2012, what year would SNA's start getting selected for f-35 training? Or would they transition currently winged jet guys whose a/c is getting replaced by the F-35?

2)Basically the same question for the P-8 Poseidon thats expected to be introduced in 2013. But more so, what happens to the P-3 guys that it replaces? Will they be trained for the P-8, even though the P-3 is powered by a completely different engine?

3) What training pipeline would the P-8 be in, i'd guess maritime but its jet powered. Are there jet powered aircraft in the maritime pipeline?

4) I'm assuming that for both aircraft the Navy will get a few trainers early on for each to start pumping out f 35/p 8 pilots so that they are ready when they buy the several hundred or so. Or maybe it will be a more gradual thing. Really not sure what to think.

Pretty sure I had a few more question, can't think of them now.

 

[Moc1Sig]

IAre there jet powered aircraft in the maritime pipeline?

this answer?

Pipeline for this guy involves flying the airforce T-1A

 

[Treetop Flyer]

I've done some searches, both on AW and google, and cant seem to find any good info. I've got a few questions that i'll go ahead and list to make it easier.

1)From what I've seen, the F-35 will be in service in 2012 (unless its pushed back to 2014 like some sources are saying). Assuming that it is in 2012, what year would SNA's start getting selected for f-35 training? Or would they transition currently winged jet guys whose a/c is getting replaced by the F-35?

2)Basically the same question for the P-8 Poseidon thats expected to be introduced in 2013. But more so, what happens to the P-3 guys that it replaces? Will they be trained for the P-8, even though the P-3 is powered by a completely different engine?

3) What training pipeline would the P-8 be in, i'd guess maritime but its jet powered. Are there jet powered aircraft in the maritime pipeline?

4) I'm assuming that for both aircraft the Navy will get a few trainers early on for each to start pumping out f 35/p 8 pilots so that they are ready when they buy the several hundred or so. Or maybe it will be a more gradual thing. Really not sure what to think.

Pretty sure I had a few more question, can't think of them now.

1.) The F-35 will be flown by a new breed of super pilots that are being cloned right now. Most of them won't be ready to come out of the vats until 2013 so that's where the delay is coming from.

2.) P-3's will go away and their crews summarily fired. The Navy is working on a contract with Southwest for pilots.

3.) See above. It will help if you are a ERAU grad.

4.) A new plane has never been introduced before so the Navy is pretty much making it up as they go.


I hope these answers have been extremely useful, and I'm glad to get in on this thread early.

 

[MIDNJAC]

This might be beyond the scope of this particular thread, but I was talking with one of our senior IP's today, and he was discussing how big Navy is expecting a big skill gap going from the T-45 into the JSF........and that they are considering a bunch of options, mostly involving some sort of additions to the strike training syllabus (downloading current FRS level stuff basically). One option was post winging, having a seperate short syllabus for Hornet/JSF types, and another was just adding flights to the end of certain stages basically requiring guys to think outside of the box. He mentioned doing stuff like section weps patterns and something a little more like multiplane pops, but weps pattern style. Another option would be reserving a few flights at the end of tacforms for full random maneuvering, basically completely uncalled stuff, requiring the SNA to keep up and hold on. He also discussed integrating some sort of very basic CAS training, involving using a 9 line, pushing from altitude and basically working a TOT realtime, but a little bit more realistically than we did on the multiplane section low levels. Last thing that was mentioned was getting an initial NVG qual taken care of (he called it a "high qual" FWIW). Sounds like interesting stuff, and he said that not only are they expecting this with the intro of the F-35, but that they are already noticing it at the Hornet/Rhino FRS's (supposedly the last 10 years have seen an ever increasing gap in skillset from newly winged guys showing up as FRS cat 1's). Thoughts? Sounds like pretty good training to me for sure.

 

[zippy]

I've done some searches, both on AW and google, and cant seem to find any good info. I've got a few questions that i'll go ahead and list to make it easier.

1)From what I've seen, the F-35 will be in service in 2012 (unless its pushed back to 2014 like some sources are saying). Assuming that it is in 2012, what year would SNA's start getting selected for f-35 training? Or would they transition currently winged jet guys whose a/c is getting replaced by the F-35?

2)Basically the same question for the P-8 Poseidon thats expected to be introduced in 2013. But more so, what happens to the P-3 guys that it replaces? Will they be trained for the P-8, even though the P-3 is powered by a completely different engine?

3) What training pipeline would the P-8 be in, i'd guess maritime but its jet powered. Are there jet powered aircraft in the maritime pipeline?

4) I'm assuming that for both aircraft the Navy will get a few trainers early on for each to start pumping out f 35/p 8 pilots so that they are ready when they buy the several hundred or so. Or maybe it will be a more gradual thing. Really not sure what to think.

Pretty sure I had a few more question, can't think of them now.

1) A FAG can answer that.

2) The P-8 FIT (Fleet Introduction Team) was stood up several years ago at VP-30, and has been laying the groundwork for the arrival of the aircraft at the FRS. Recently there was a message put out seeking VP community reservist with 737 experience for active duty recall to augment the Active Duty FIT team during the early days of the transition (creating the syllabus and training reqs etc.). When VP-45 transitions after its last P-3 deployment those individuals with enough time left in the squadron to be of any use to it during its first P-8 IDRC will go through the P-8 syllabus created by the P-8 FIT. After completion of the transition syllabus, VP-45 personnel (along with new people the squadron picked up along the way during training) will move back to one of the hangers with shiny new P-8s and start flying them for an IDRC prior to their first deployment. P-3 guys who did not have enough time left in the squadron to transition will transfer on to other tours and transition to the P-8 at a later date.

3) T-34/T-6 Primary followed by T-44/TC-12 advanced (maybe a few people thrown to T-1s if the Navy hasn't stopped sending students through AF advanced by then) and then to VP-30 for training in the P-8 or P-3 (no idea how they will ID which students get what aircraft at VP-30 yet).

4) The first several P-8s are undergoing flight testing right now. Once that is complete the FRS will receive its first batch of P-8s where the aircrew will train on them (and a lot of simulators at the new P-8 training center they are going to build in the field across the street from VP-30). For several years, VP-30 will be conducting initial training for P-3s and P-8s as well as refresher training for P-3s and transition training for squadrons moving from P-3 to P-8.

 

[SynixMan]

this answer?
(E-6B Picture)
Pipeline for this guy involves flying the airforce T-1A

FYI, According to our resident E-6B bubba (FlyBoyd), no longer the case. E-6B Cat Is will go through the VT-31 and fly the T-44C for advanced before reporting to Tinker for the FRS.

 

[FlyBoyd]

FYI, According to our resident E-6B bubba (FlyBoyd), no longer the case. E-6B Cat Is will go through the VT-31 and fly the T-44C for advanced before reporting to Tinker for the FRS.

MCG - https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/pubs/folder2/1542.147D.pdf

 

[armada1651]

This might be beyond the scope of this particular thread, but I was talking with one of our senior IP's today, and he was discussing how big Navy is expecting a big skill gap going from the T-45 into the JSF........and that they are considering a bunch of options, mostly involving some sort of additions to the strike training syllabus (downloading current FRS level stuff basically). One option was post winging, having a seperate short syllabus for Hornet/JSF types, and another was just adding flights to the end of certain stages basically requiring guys to think outside of the box. He mentioned doing stuff like section weps patterns and something a little more like multiplane pops, but weps pattern style. Another option would be reserving a few flights at the end of tacforms for full random maneuvering, basically completely uncalled stuff, requiring the SNA to keep up and hold on. He also discussed integrating some sort of very basic CAS training, involving using a 9 line, pushing from altitude and basically working a TOT realtime, but a little bit more realistically than we did on the multiplane section low levels. Last thing that was mentioned was getting an initial NVG qual taken care of (he called it a "high qual" FWIW). Sounds like interesting stuff, and he said that not only are they expecting this with the intro of the F-35, but that they are already noticing it at the Hornet/Rhino FRS's (supposedly the last 10 years have seen an ever increasing gap in skillset from newly winged guys showing up as FRS cat 1's). Thoughts? Sounds like pretty good training to me for sure.

That does sound like good training that would help our skills be relevant to the current fight when we get to the gray planes. I'd been wishing we could do NVG stuff in advanced like the helo guys, even if it's just for one or two night forms, though a night weps hop would be badass. As for the CAS flights, I know the Air Force has just started integrating that in IFF (their equivalent to our phase 2/advanced strike) in the past couple months or so. Seems like a good idea for us to jump in on that too.

 

[MIDNJAC]

That does sound like good training that would help our skills be relevant to the current fight when we get to the gray planes. I'd been wishing we could do NVG stuff in advanced like the helo guys, even if it's just for one or two night forms, though a night weps hop would be badass. As for the CAS flights, I know the Air Force has just started integrating that in IFF (their equivalent to our phase 2/advanced strike) in the past couple months or so. Seems like a good idea for us to jump in on that too.

Agreed. I think night weps might be a little beyond the scope of this (hung ord approach might be a little sketch at night though maybe not), but who knows. I know one IP called it "not-CAS" since the plans apparently are very rudimentary, still it would be interesting to see. On our last multiplane low level, they gave us a zulu TOT to meet, which we had to work with them in the manner we supposedly would do so with a FAC, but I don't think that even scrapes the iceberg from what I have heard. BTW congrats on Krock!

 

[EODDave]

NVG's in T-45s? Guys learn to crawl, then walk and then run. Learn the basics! How about staying in position? Form, sensor, comm sound familiar to anyone. When new guys get to their first fleet squadron, its basically fly good form so the lead knows where you are and if you get a shot off great. My 2 cents is that the FRS has gone wayyyyyyy overboard on what CAT1's get or need in their syllabus. DTD, SES, SOF CAS??? Really? These are all good to know, but that is what the SFWT level 2, 3 and 4 syllabi are all about. How abut learning the basics. Systems knowledge and basic employment of the weapons that we actually use in the fleet. The FRS course length has not gotten any longer and they expect wayyyy to much from the CAT1's today. 2 out of 10 can rock it and ask for more, but the other 8 are like holy shit. Doing more with less and with less time seems to be the way we do things, but eventually something has gota give.

 

[webmaster]

....These are all good to know, but that is what the SFWT level 2, 3 and 4 syllabi are all about. How abut learning the basics. Systems knowledge and basic employment of the weapons that we actually use in the fleet. The FRS course length has not gotten any longer and they expect wayyyy to much from the CAT1's today. 2 out of 10 can rock it and ask for more, but the other 8 are like holy shit. Doing more with less and with less time seems to be the way we do things, but eventually something has gota give.

I get a chuckle out of this! It seems that we have some of the same issues across community FRS CAT I programs.

 

[helolumpy]

1)From what I've seen, the F-35 will be in service in 2012 (unless its pushed back to 2014 like some sources are saying).

2)Basically the same question for the P-8 Poseidon thats expected to be introduced in 2013.

Don't get too wrapped around the axel on the dates. Back in 96 we were told that as Dept Heads we'd (HS bubbas) would be split between the Romeo and Sierra communities (still not named). Fast forward to my department head tour and the Sierra is brand new to the HC/HSC squadrons and the first Romeos weren't even off the production line yet.

My advice is don't sweat the dates when aircraft arrive because they will alwasy slide to the right due to $$$ and technology not developing as quickly as forecasted. However when the fleet squadrons first start standing up, they'll need nuggets in the squadrons because that's how we man squadrons.
Kind of like when we first went to the Hornet, they cross-trained a lot of A-7, A-6 & F-14 pilots in the Hornet, but some guys got it straight out of the VT's.

 

[Ken_gone_flying]

When VP-45 transitions after its last P-3 deployment those individuals with enough time left in the squadron to be of any use to it during its first P-8 IDRC will go through the P-8 syllabus created by the P-8 FIT.

I heard VP-16 will be the first squadron to transition now.

 

[zippy]

I heard VP-16 will be the first squadron to transition now.

According to the CNAF Aviation Master Plan message that was recently released, VP-45 first and VP-16 right after that.

 

[tusk91]

Are the "EP-3E" squadrons at NAS Whidbey Island transitioning to the "P-8 Poseidon" or will the continue to fly Orion's???