vegita1220
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I've seen some pretty...fanatical...atheists.
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For all you Michael Moore fans out there...
- Thread starter Dave Shutter
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Kevin,
Definitely agree with what you said about absolutes.
Good ol' Webster defined religion as, "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith." (Pretty much the same definition as what Fly Navy used)
Like vegita said, there are a lot of fanatical atheists - Christians believe in God, Atheists believe there is no God. Atheism is the religion of no God. Both hold to their specific beliefs with "ardor and faith."
It is not "far fetched" to say atheism is a religion - it is a correct label. I don't know how a person can deny atheism is a religion (unless you have the narrow view that a religion is what people do by going to church on Sunday mornings). From what I've read of Buddhism - it is a religion, but it does not involve gods or a God.
Kevin - if you categorically deny something - can you at least give supporting arguments for that denial?
Definitely agree with what you said about absolutes.
Good ol' Webster defined religion as, "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith." (Pretty much the same definition as what Fly Navy used)
Like vegita said, there are a lot of fanatical atheists - Christians believe in God, Atheists believe there is no God. Atheism is the religion of no God. Both hold to their specific beliefs with "ardor and faith."
It is not "far fetched" to say atheism is a religion - it is a correct label. I don't know how a person can deny atheism is a religion (unless you have the narrow view that a religion is what people do by going to church on Sunday mornings). From what I've read of Buddhism - it is a religion, but it does not involve gods or a God.
Kevin - if you categorically deny something - can you at least give supporting arguments for that denial?
kevin
Registered User
oh God, here we go again. my argument....by your definition (webster's) i would agree that atheism is a "religion". by the same, i could also say that by the same line of reasoning submission wrestling (my style of fighting) is a religion because there is system of beliefs (always go to ground, maintain top control, maintain close quarter, aim to head, aim to rib, hit kidneys when bottom rolls to side, etc) and i have firm faith this is the most effective way to win a fight. in reality do i consider this a religion- no. perhaps a poor analogy but i can think of a million others. "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith" - that can apply to almost anything. i dont believe that webster's dictionary in this particular case necessarily applies to the real world. religion also encompasses tradition, a heirarchy of people, and a set system of ideals to strive for. atheism doesnt encompass all of these. that doesnt mean it is any less legitimate, it means by my view that it's not a religion as defined by "reality." buddhism (which doesnt view a "God-character") does encompass all those things, and is in fact closer in many ways to Catholicism (my religion) than perhaps any other religion. so there are my supporting arguments.
Good arguments Kevin, but in fact, doesn't Aetheism exhibit those same qualities you labeled as "reality"? One could say the tradition is starting (no God, removing it from the public, etc.), as well as there is a hierarchy (the head public figures leading their minions to destroy God in the public). There is obviously a set of ideals they are striving for. So basically your own counter-arguments do in fact support the argument that aetheism is a religion, do you agree?
Everyone believes in a "Higher Power" wether it be a God, many gods, a bigger philosophy or just plain chance, so I think that the whole nation should realize that the word "God" is just that, a word. People seem to be too afraid of a government sponsered religion, but I don't think that it could happen in American. We can't agree on anyhting in the government, let alone religion. So people should sit back, take a deep breath, and believe what they want to believe and leave the rest of us alone.
Ben
Ben
kevin
Registered User
no i dont agree. "traditions" that you refer to are far from being an all-inclusive thing. in fact, as you pointed out, this minority of people is just that- a minority. i doubt the majority of even hard-core atheists have a problem with or are making a stand against the use of school prayer, etc. and the head people are simply speakers for their "cause". i would say that my list of things to make a religion a religion far from being complete. by your argument i could also say that any group of lobbyists in washington is each one a religion- which would be absurd.
ben: "...believe what they want to believe and leave the rest of us alone." i would agree, except the problem is that's what both sides are saying- hence, point of conflict.
ben: "...believe what they want to believe and leave the rest of us alone." i would agree, except the problem is that's what both sides are saying- hence, point of conflict.
akamifeldman
Interplanetary Ambassador
Because, as an American, you have the right to not have anyone else's views/religions forced upon you. Especially from the government itself. Isn't that why people came to the New World in the first place, to escape religious persecution?
Freedom of religion includes freedom from religion.
The separation of church and state is as basic a right as that of free speech, both established in the Constitution. Doesn't foisting state religion upon the people make us as bad as the terrorists (in theory)? I would have thought those of you in the service who have sworn to uphold the Constitution would have seen this.
Freedom of religion includes freedom from religion.
The separation of church and state is as basic a right as that of free speech, both established in the Constitution. Doesn't foisting state religion upon the people make us as bad as the terrorists (in theory)? I would have thought those of you in the service who have sworn to uphold the Constitution would have seen this.
akamifeldman: Do you honestly feel that Christianity is being forced upon you as the state religion? Before you instantly answer "yes", THINK. If you do believe it is being forced as a state sponsored religion, that must explain the horrendous religious persecution of every non-Christian faith in this country...oh wait, there isn't any persecution. We now live in a time when the US Postal Service can release a stamp honoring a Muslim holiday, yet you can't have a Nativity scene in the town square...ask yourself "what is wrong with this picture?"
akamifeldman
Interplanetary Ambassador
Correct, Christianity is not foisted as a legal state religion, but it is in the sense that we're excluding all non-christians and people who do not believe in G-d. One needs only to look at a dollar bill to see that. As a Jew (!) I feel particularly offended when issues like the Alabama judge and his Ten Commandments monument thing come up. If he's okay with putting that monument in his courthouse, would he be okay with me putting a monument of all 613 Mitzvot in there as well? Or a Buddhist putting a statue of the Buddha?
But the point I'm trying to make is more basic that that. I'm not arguing for government to accomidate every religion under the sun so no one is ever offended again. I'm arguing that the government cannot ever take sides on any religion issue (even as basic as trusting god, as in money). It is as simple as that. Church (or mosque, or synagogue) is separate from state. It is the only way to ensure fairness and equality for all.
But the point I'm trying to make is more basic that that. I'm not arguing for government to accomidate every religion under the sun so no one is ever offended again. I'm arguing that the government cannot ever take sides on any religion issue (even as basic as trusting god, as in money). It is as simple as that. Church (or mosque, or synagogue) is separate from state. It is the only way to ensure fairness and equality for all.
I'm not a huge fan of "In God We Trust" or saying "under god." However, I dont really care. That has pretty much been the extent of the problem, if you can call it that. It's hardly worth it to bring something like that up and say the government is pushing Christianity. Thats bull****.
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