For all you Michael Moore fans out there...

[kevin]

jboomer: fair enough. and i actually have a pretty good attitude about most things, even with regards to authority. but as to having a problem with certain kinds of authority- your absolutely right. i cant stand people like yourself (not a hateful comment towards you, because everyone is different to a certain extent) which is why im questioning whether im on the right track.

 

[vegita1220]

kimphil, on the President as a leader...correct me if I'm wrong, but he took action rather than inaction-like our dear fmr Pres. Clinton. Whether that action was right or not certainly is debatable(to an absolutely pointless extent), but the point is he had the balls to take major action rather than sit on his ass and wait around. That's why I respect him. Sure things seem to be going like crap from my uneducated perspective, but the fact is I have less knowledge of what's happening there than a grunt, who has even less than a roving reporter in Iraq, who has even less than our President, who still probably has no idea what's going on.

My point is, intel on stuff like "how happy the indigenous ppl are" is not something you can be definite on. And there were too many variables in making his decision that I don't think anyone who hasn't been in that kind of position has the right to criticize. Don't take that the wrong way, you can criticize the outcome, but not the decision making process. Would you criticize competent Iraqi generals(if there were any) who had no idea wtf was going on when we shoved our boot up his ass for "bad leadership," even when absolutely BLIND!?

Basically, I don't think Bush lied...I think he just got bad information. Ever play the game telephone? That's what the NCA goes through every time he gets information isn't it?

 

[riley]

I'm trying to get out of my cush civvy job - kevin, you are more than welcome to it......

 

[paikea]

Originally posted by Patmack18
AND ANOTHER THING!!!

LOWslostupid

man i thought u guys would hav moved off my ass by now lol

 

[Banjo33]

Dang, I forgot all about YOU!!! No, just playing.

 

[ben]

This topic is getting out of control... it took me 30 minutes to read all the new posts since yesterday!

I'm going to stay out of the political debate, mostly because I have a project I should be working on and don't feel like typing all night. I will say a little something though. Please bear in mind that you are reading the opinion of a college student.

I have not been to OCS yet (11 months and counting), but I knew enough about the military before I signed up to realize that you don't question orders publicly. The same goes for the civilian world. Would you question your boss in front of your coworkers? Would you question your coach's playcalling in an athletic event? NO!!! If you have a problem with your superior you should address it in planning or in private, if not both. When you're in the process of developing a plan, it's always smart to look at all of the possible outcomes and try to get as much input as you can. It's just like planning for a football game, you research your opponent and work as a coaching team to come up with the best possible gameplan. Player input is welcomed and encouraged. But, once the game starts, you don't question your coach's calls. When he makes a call you execute that particular play, no questions asked. When you get back to the sidelines you can give some feedback as to how the implementation went. The military is the same. When planning for a mission it is wise to get as much input as possible. Once the time comes to actually carry out the plan, you either follow orders or put someone (potentially yourself) in grave danger. Obviously, wartime operations and peacetime cleaning duties are not the same. But the analogy still works.

I, as a civilian, had enough of a grasp how the world works to come to these conclusions on my own. Anyone who can't hasn't had the same realizations has no business pursuing a career in the military. Obviously, people like me will be taught not to question orders when we get to OCS. But seriously, shouldn't an applicant already know that? I mean isn't that pretty much how the military has ALWAYS worked? I'm not trying to insult anyone in particlur, but I would think this sort if thing is common sense. Maybe I've read too far into some of these posts, and maybe it's too hard to understand a conversation over the internet, but it seems to me that there's at least a few people around here who should seriously question their desire to become an officer in the military. Navy, Marine Corps, AF, whatever. Orders are orders. Am I way ahead of the game or is this something that most normal people realize on their own?

 

[Flash]

Since everyone else has said something already, I figured I would clutter up the board even more.

First off, those who have mentioned that politics don't have much of a place in the wardroom, ready room or the cockpit (flight station for you P-3 types

) are right on. While someone might make a political statement or two occasionally, the most discussed political situations that I have seen in the Navy were the elections of Jesse Ventura and Ahnold. Among the many fine men and women I have served with, there has been a suprisingly great diversty of political opinion which they usually share only in private. Why? Because our job is not to make policy, but to implement it. Does that mean that we have to love our president or even vote for him? No, but it does mean you respect him as the CIC and folow his lawful orders. Whatever someone in my wardroom thought politically, when we were deployed for Iraqi Freedom every single one was proud to be part of it.

I have seen a couple off handed suggestions that the people from one political party might be more inclined to do better or more suited for military service. This is a bit arrogant on the part of the people who suggest this. I could give a damn what the politics of the guy sitting next to me in the cockpit or my wingman. As long as they are willing to put their lives on the line for their fellow servicmembers, then they can vote for whoever the hell they want to. As for some of the people who have served their country in the military and continue(d) to serve as one of our elected represenatives, here are few examples:

Senator Daniel Inouye (Hawaii)-Democrat- Medal of Honor awardee, lost an arm in combat

Rep. Randy Cunningham (Calif)-Republican- Navy Cross awardee and the only Naval Aviator who became an ace in Vietnam.

Senator John Kerry (Mass.)-Democrat- Navy gunboat captain in Vietnam and winner of the Silver Star.

Senator John McCain (AZ)-Republican- POW for 5 1/2 years in Vietnam, returned with honor.

I could continue the list on for a long time but my point is twofold. Service and bravery knows no race, creed, religion, sex or......politics. There was even a guy who was a concientious objector for religous reasons in WWII who won the Medal of Honor as a medic for saving a whole lot of guys, even though he refused to carry a gun. Secondly, as long as you are an officer in the military you are entitled whatever political opinion you want, you just need to keep it to yourself when you get to the front gate.

The best advice I can give is some that I got from my mother a log time ago. "Don't discuss polotics or religion with your friends, or you won't have any."

So.......how about those Marlins?

Flash

 

[EA-6B1]

I'm telling you guys. It's going to be a '10 pager.' Already on page 5, almost 6...

 

[Fly Navy]

"Secondly, as long as you are an officer in the military you are entitled whatever political opinion you want, you just need to keep it to yourself when you get to the front gate."

It's my understanding that as an AMERICAN, we're entitled to whatever political opinion we want.

I agree, politics have no place in the wardroom. In fact, in uniform I won't mention politics at all. However, this isn't the wardroom.

Your mom's advice is pretty sound. I don't tend to discuss politics with friends, especially if they are opposed to mine. Just sometimes, when ignorant children feel like spouting crap, people tend to react.

 

[Daedalus]

I really don't think it matters that the Yankees lost, so long as they beat the Red Sucks.

 

[Enishi1983]

about the whole senators and being heroes and stuff, i think we should just bring back the good ol' bush sr., and destroy everything that is in harm's way. god bless you bush!

...forget what i just said, but i respect him b/c he definitely flew for the navy, and because he was in similar situations like pow's, only that he got away instead of getting captured.

OFF TOPIC-for baseball, i was pretty pissed that yankess lost to the marlins!!!

 

[Fly Navy]

"I really don't think it matters that the Yankees lost, so long as they beat the Red Sucks."

OK, seriously, you just crossed the line. BURN IN HELL!

 

[Daedalus]

HAHA honestly though they brought it upon themselves. How many times were the Red commies up and they squandered their lead?

 

[Daedalus]

Yonkers? They from Da Bronx haha It's ok though 26 something World Series is enough for now, if no one else won, people would loose interest in an already boring sport.

 

[Fly Navy]

Funny how you call the Red Sox commies, when your precious Spankees have Hillary Clinton as a Senator.

Like I was saying to my friends....Yankees vs. Marlins........what a boring match-up