Fight's On! The origins of TOPGUN and dogfights back in the day/future prospects

[jarhead]

Looks a little different, but I believe the "date farm" is pictured below, just under "78".

It was on the way back to NKX from the Chocolate mountains or other R-areas around the Salton Sea. If you had the gas, you circled a few times there to see who might show up. You can see how easy a landmark it was, just a bit west of the Salton Sea and northwest of El Centro....

PS: It was usually F-8s who would conserve gas, then circle, hoping for an easy F-4 kill. But times did change when thanks to TOPGUN, F-4 pilots learned how to beat up on the F-8. Then it was F-4s, not F-8s overhead the Date Farm, looking for an engagement.

ahh, the good ole days... what has happened, where did it go, how did it get screwed up... sigh

anyways, that's called the "pea patch" these days... it's west of the Salton Sea and just North of the R2510 and under the KANE MOA. It's still green & thriving. The "date farm" on the IR217 is miles NE of the Salton Sea, NE of Desert Center, CA & I-10.

SF

 

[a2b2c3]

ahh, the good ole days... what has happened, where did it go, how did it get screwed up... sigh

anyways, that's called the "pea patch" these days... it's west of the Salton Sea and just North of the R2510 and under the KANE MOA. It's still green & thriving. The "date farm" on the IR217 is miles NE of the Salton Sea, NE of Desert Center, CA & I-10.

SF

I thought something didn't look quite right with that picture! Thanks for clearing it up.

 

[phrogdriver]

Somewhere between the Wild West and TRA (Total Risk Avoidance, Trademark 2008 Harrier Dude) lies the way things should probably be. I don't like the no-fun, low-risk, CYA attitude prevalent today. At the same time, you know that a lot of people and aircraft bought the farm"back in the day" unnecessarily doing unbriefed flights, flathatting, etc. I call my proposal "rational insanity."

 

[A4sForever]

..... At the same time, you know that a lot of people and aircraft bought the farm"back in the day" unnecessarily doing unbriefed flights, flathatting, etc.....

At the risk of sounding 'uncaring':

It was called 'natural selection' ... 'knowing your own limitations'. I never knew anyone who 'bought the farm' who didn't -- didn't 'know their own limitations', that is ...

Separating the wheat from the chaff, if you will ... it's the way of the world. There's no guarantees in life.

 

[HeyJoe]

Somewhere between the Wild West and TRA (Total Risk Avoidance, Trademark 2008 Harrier Dude) lies the way things should probably be. I don't like the no-fun, low-risk, CYA attitude prevalent today. At the same time, you know that a lot of people and aircraft bought the farm"back in the day" unnecessarily doing unbriefed flights, flathatting, etc. I call my proposal "rational insanity."

Flying low was once the name of the game and low levels were part of our T&R matrix. We resolved to do it aggressively with full knowledge of Chain of Command. But as a famous movie character once said "A man has to know his limitations". We tore it up over Turkey, France, Oman, Norway, Saudi Arabia, Diego Garcia, Honduras flying as low as we thought prudent and fought ACM right down to the deck against very savvy Brit folks flying Jaguars and Hunters in Oman. Nobody ever got hurt because we worked into it and everybody knew it would over if there was a single mishap. Even had an engine eat itself while ultra low over Turkey and had a long trip back to ship with Turkish F-5s making runs on us. All in a day's work.

Having fun over Saudi Arabia while returning from mission over Iraq during Desert Storm circa 1991.

HJ Photo

 

[phrogdriver]

At the risk of sounding 'uncaring':

It was called 'natural selection' ... 'knowing your own limitations'. I never knew anyone who 'bought the farm' who didn't -- didn't 'know their own limitations', that is ...

Separating the wheat from the chaff, if you will ... it's the way of the world. There's no guarantees in life.

At least in multi-place aircraft, that one guy could "naturally select" one, two, three, or even a couple dozen guys out of the gene pool as well. Not to mention with aircraft prices and production runs the way they are now, the taxpayers aren't buying us a replacement for that airframe Captain Flathat splattered over the countryside.

 

[A4sForever]

At least in multi-place aircraft, that one guy could "naturally select" one, two, three, or even a couple dozen guys out of the gene pool as well. Not to mention with aircraft prices and production runs the way they are now, the taxpayers aren't buying us a replacement for that airframe Captain Flathat splattered over the countryside.

Yeah, well ... every time ... that's as in EVERY TIME a USMC STUD busted out of the jet pipeline (when I was going through) ... guess where they sent him if not back to the FMF ???

To HELOs. Transports. So he could kill 20-40 at a time, instead of 'just one' ... or 'two' ...

I stand by my statement re: 'natural selection' -- as you fly in combat based on how you train in peacetime.

Naval Aviation: it's not a job for second best.

 

[Catmando]

I stand by my statement re: 'natural selection' -- as you fly in combat based on how you train in peacetime.

Naval Aviation: it's not a job for second best.

"Train like you fight." "No points for second place." These were not old idle axioms. They were hard facts from people who had been there; who knew.

Also, all my ROs were as eager to join the fray and/or push the envelope as I was. Some even more so. If not, they were probably in the wrong aircraft, if not in the wrong line of work.

 

[rondebmar]

<<<It was called 'natural selection' ... 'knowing your own limitations'. I never knew anyone who 'bought the farm' who didn't -- didn't 'know their own limitations', that is ...>>>

Agree with all you say, A4s...except for:

Catastrophic (or nearly so) structural failure of A/C...happened to me in a Spad, I survived...happened to many friends aboard a VQ-2 WV-2Q when tail separated, lost ~32 guys (~1962)...

CO poisoning...happened to me...old T-34...about to land in the trees at Saufley (?)...didn't give a shit!!...saved by the "Runway Duty Officer"...screamed me out of it on the radio...had over 10% CO blood concentration at post incident medical exam...cracked exhaust manifold...

Cold Cat shots...

Arresting gear cable snaps during runout...(CO of VA-125, baggin' some A4 traps on a quiet Sunday afternoon during FRP quals off SFO)...ejection trajectory paralleled the water...

A7 driver blowing along an authorized "sandblower" route in a MOA near Fallon collides with a GA A/C piloted by a newby holding a PPL...

Thought of those off the top of my head. :-(

Oh yeah...

LOC at ~100' AGL following deck run in a Spad...happened to me...because a friggin' Stoof pilot crossed the bow just a bit ahead of the boat at ~100'...laid down a nice trail of prop/radome wash...

Months later, our squadron lost our skipper under somewhat similar circumstances...for no apparent reason, stalled/spun out of his "clearing turn"

 

[phrogdriver]

Like I said, I hear some stories from the Old Fart Brigade that make me wish I was born 30 years earlier. Other times, I hear ones that make me think, "That's insane. No wonder 25 percent of your peers ended up dead!" Different times, different problems. I've heard plenty of stories from old hands about how drunk a PILOT was when he got in an aircraft. That's not hard, that's just dumb.

At the same time, I hear stories today of guys getting in trouble for the lamest things you could imagine in regards to low flying, "edge of the envelope" (for lack of a better word) while guys who should get FFPBed for lack of competence get off scott-free. It seems the only thing many senior leaders care about is not having someone embarass the command, rather than who's best suited to go into combat. As with most issues, the pendulum never settles in the middle where it should be, it just ends up at extremes.

 

[A4sForever]

Agree with all you say, A4s...except for:....."

Roger that; material failures?? Events outside your control?? Those are always a possibility, no matter how 'good/bad' the individual is ... lost some friends that way ... almost got 'bit' myself on more than one occasion from man/material failures OUTSIDE the cockpit.

Some days it doesn't pay to get outta' bed.

I was goin' more for that 'self-inflicted gunshot wound' w/ my original observation ... i.e., guys whose attitudes, skill levels, experience levels, and judgment (a.k.a. in the sense of: knowing your personal limitations) are not up to the flying they try to perform -- tactical type stuff, yankin' & bankin' type stuff. All those esoteric stick & throttle & headwork qualities that coalesce to make a VERY GOOD Aviator and are tapped on a daily basis just to have a 'good day' when said Aviator straps on an airplane ... or, tragically, those same qualities that don't ever come together and someday that Aviator, flying 'over his limits', becomes a smoking hole in the ground.

In other words, guys who tried to 'be somebody' and weren't yet ready for the Varsity. In Naval Aviation, their success and survival is problematical, at best.

 

[blackbart22]

The first guy from my preflight class to buy the farm was heard to say in the Whiteing Kadet club "There ain't nothing I can't do in a T-28." He went out the next morning and proved that he couldn't complete a slow roll over his gun flight at 1000'.

 

[Catmando]

Had a guy in my class who didn't have the grades for a fleet seat when winged, and was stashed somewhere for a couple of years. He was really bitter about it, always thinking he was the ace of the base.

When he finally got to the fleet, he really made a name for himself – by doing a low transition on take-off, and then settling back down on the runway in a big fireball. It didn't surprise a lot of people.

 

[A4sForever]

Had a guy in my class who didn't have the grades for a fleet seat when winged, and was stashed somewhere for a couple of years. He was really bitter about it, always thinking he was the ace of the base.

When he finally got to the fleet, he really made a name for himself – by doing a low transition on take-off, and then settling back down on the runway in a big fireball. It didn't surprise a lot of people.

We had an idiot who was a plowback in VT-21 when I went through ... nickname started w/an 'S' ... he always thought he was 'better' than what his lot in life had brought him to date -- kept talkin' about 'BENDING BIRDS', whatever that meant to him ... talked about how he could 'hardly wait to get to SEAsia ... ' He was usually first to the bar and the last to leave -- loud, obnoxious, boring.

He desperately wanted to 'be somebody'.

He was 'late' ... but he finally got his FLEET SEAT (I think it was VFP-63) and a year later, while doin' a low altitude barrel roll in an F-8 after a flight/fight @ the HNL Op-Area(s) on the way to WestPac ... he pranged it into a mountain peak ... didn't finish the 'roll', obviously ... no ejection.

Everyone ... that's like 'EVERYONE' who knew him said: "I'm surprised it took this long. "

Uncaring ??? Unkind ??? Insensitive ??? Or just realistic ... ???

Remember ... he was an idiot. He DID NOT know his limitations.

 

[scoolbubba]

I consider myself a pretty aggressive person/pilot, and like all of us, the end all be all best damn thing that ever put on an airplane (or at least working toward it)...but seriously old guys? This shit actually happened? Studs trunking a ride from Austin to KNQI on a solo ended up with 2 pairs of wings not being handed out. No shenanigans AFAIK (and this is second hand) other than that, and two dudes got told to pack their shit and leave because the Navy doesn't need retards flying jets.

Thank god the powers that be are a little better at reining us in than they used to be.

It does the nation no good when you die for it in a whiskey area because you were a needle dick idiot, other than cleaning up the gene pool.