Fight's On! The origins of TOPGUN and dogfights back in the day/future prospects

[futrMarineBlueAngel]

What's gonna happen with the Top Gun school in Miramar after the F-14 Tomcats are phased out?

 

[Gatordev]

I would suppose nothing, since it isn't there anymore. The Marines inherited the base and defiled a piece of history by putting that ugly EGA on everything.

 

[squeeze]

TOPGUN has been at NAS Fallon since 1993 when it was incorporated into NSAWC. Since 93, Miramar has been an MCAS.

 

[ander37]

I thought they still had a Top Gun school and it was now F-18's flying outta there.
I thought it was a special off the Discovery Wings channel, they also had something about Red October where F-18's go to Germany and mock fight the Mig-29 (which would be soo cool)!

 

[jrklr]

The top gun school in Fallon is still in full effect from what I know (although it was way cooler in miramar) and I beleive they fly F-14's there still as well as F-18's. If anyone knows if they're training superhornet pilots there I'd like to know. Also, I've heard that its more of an attack school rather than fighter, since no one really gets in dogfights anymore. Anyone else know about this?

 

[bunk22]

As an Ensign, I was stashed at "TOPGUN" awaiting flight school. That was 1993 in Miramar. The school moved in 1995 to NAS Fallon.

 

[Gatordev]

Just to clarify, the change Navy wide hasn't necessarily been to an "attack" syllabus, but a "Strike" one. It's the Strike Fighter Weapons School, and concurrently, they have the Strike Weapons School for helos as well. Pretty much across the board that's been the focus ie, Bombcats, Hornets, Strike Vikings, P-3s w/ missles and bombs, and the helos going from ASW to Strike warfare (hellfire, Section Gun attacks). Whether this is a good thing is up for debate. Obviously it's working for the pointy nose guys, but ASW ability has seriously degraded over the years.

 

[webmaster]

ASW is getting the same treatment, learning from the Strike guys and using the same template, and they are creating the ASW equivalent of NSAWC with the surface, helo, P3 and sub guys forming it. It will be in San Diego is last I heard.

NSAWC was a lot of fun, went there last year with one of the Wings, and provided some P3 ISR support during training.

 

[stevew]

How and when in the pipeline do you get selected for TOP GUN and is the same for the NAvy as it is for the Marines. Do both braches got to Fallon or are marines sent to a different location for TOP GUN?

 

[jarhead]

Ault Report, Origin of TOPGUN and today's state of Air Combat/ACM

little moto for those fellas still in training ...

schwacking a Fighting Falcon

the video is around 27mb, .wmv file ... 1v1 DACT against an F-16, butterfly set at 17k, both jets centerline only

stay motivated

S/F

 

[Schnugg]

Nice video. Lipstick camera on the helmet?

 

[A4sForever]

Great stuff. And nothing in life is "obvious", and "obviously" I wasn't there and could only see this DACT world-view glimpsed through the perspective of a tiny lens ... and dimly at that. I could, however, almost feel a g-suit "grunt" coming in one of the turns .... conditioned reflex ???

We should always try to learn from the "game film"; and if I were to suggest a "lessons learned" from this brief slice of ACM life, I would suggest the two did not use the vertical nearly enough --- mainly a horizontal turning fight until it was too late for the F-16 ... AND THEN HE DOVE FOR THE DECK IN A BELATED, VAIN ATTEMPT TO ESCAPE. Learn to make use the vertical to maintain your energy levels and ability to control your relative position in the fight. Again, I wasn't there and did not have a 360 degree perspective -- I'm generalizing based on the clip of film.

Notice the fingers cut out of the glove ... ??? Safety mavens aside, that's reality .....

 

[jarhead]

Nice video. Lipstick camera on the helmet?

yes Sir, velcroed to the helmet cover

Great stuff. And nothing in life is "obvious", and "obviously" I wasn't there and could only see this DACT world-view glimpsed through the perspective of a tiny lens ... and dimly at that. I could, however, almost feel a g-suit "grunt" coming in one of the turns .... conditioned reflex ???

We should always try to learn from the "game film"; and if I were to suggest a "lessons learned" from this brief slice of ACM life, I would suggest the two did not use the vertical nearly enough --- mainly a horizontal turning fight until it was too late for the F-16 ... AND THEN HE DOVE FOR THE DECK IN A BELATED, VAIN ATTEMPT TO ESCAPE. Learn to make use the vertical to maintain your energy levels and ability to control your relative position in the fight. Again, I wasn't there and did not have a 360 degree perspective -- I'm generalizing based on the clip of film.

Notice the fingers cut out of the glove ... ??? Safety mavens aside, that's reality .....

after reading your assessment and out of curiousity, i watched the HUD tape (can't post that) again ... the Hornet went 45degrees nose up after checking across the F-16's tail (7.2G's for those interested), the F-16 turned across the horizon (typical) and failed to counter what was basically a hi yo-yo out of the Hornet. at the second merge, the Hornet has angles (and a shot) so he tightens down in order to collapse the fight & deny that shot (and bleeds below corner). the Hornet early turns him, and does what is basically a low yo-yo. again, instead of matching the Hornets nose, he stays across the horizon, until the Hornets nose threatens him ... at that point, a wide third merge happens, with the Hornet early turning him again as both fighters begin 2 circle spiral towards the deck, with the Hornet extremely offensive & eventually gunning the the Fighting Falcon (they love being called that) before a terminate call.

i would assess that the F-16 failed to use the vertical, instead, arcing around the horizon; failed to reorient his lift vector towards the Hornet when the Hornet went out of plane (twice), thus giving up angles; by threatening him with his nose, the Hornet influenced the F-16 into a slow speed fight where the Hornet excels & the F-16 doesn't ... that is basically what i told the dude in the debrief

 

[Blutonski816]

wicked, dude...

yes Sir, velcroed to the helmet cover

Is there anything velcro can't do???

 

[A4sForever]

.....out of curiousity, i watched the HUD tape ... the Hornet went 45degrees nose up after checking across the F-16's tail (7.2G's for those interested) ...... the F-16 turned across the horizon (typical) and failed to counter what was basically a hi yo-yo i would assess that the F-16 failed to use the vertical, instead, arcing around the horizon ..... failed to reorient .....when the Hornet went out of plane (twice), thus giving up angles; ........ the Hornet influenced the F-16 into a slow speed fight where the Hornet excels & the F-16 doesn't ...

The Air Force never seems to learn -- if they do, it's the "hard way". My solution to the F-16 was always to get him slow --- and they usually did --- he was mine. If he wouldn't, I would try to extend and start over . Eventually he would fall to the seduction of the close-in rolling/turning fight. I could usually count on that and out-sicissor, rolling or horizontal, an F-16 or an F-15 to death. This isn't the first time I have seen the Air Force take a fine fighter and employ unsound tactics or fly the other guys' fight. Were you to witness what I saw over the years as a participant and an observer, they have been doing it ever since Vietnam.

Thanks for the forum "debrief", I appreciate it. .... based on what I could see (my very limited view ) you are spot on. The only thing I might (emphasis: "might" -- no g-suit here) have tried as the Hornet driver would have been to go higher/earlier (@45 deg is not very nose-hi to my way of thinking) and end it sooner. Just me .... A-4's and F-4's usually thought of 45 as the "minimum" for a hi yo-yo, but then we did not have the thrust-to-weight nor the pitch authority that these two fine birds do. Plus, I really used rudders to maximum effectiveness --- the A-4 could snap-roll/180 reverse direction (kind of hard to describe without being there) faster than anything I've ever seen with max rudder input(s) on top of a vertical move. God, I love talking about this stuff .... it's been years .....

... FIGHT's ON !!!