Faith

[raptor10]

316? Is that number significant? I know 613 is significant in Judaism.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[jus2mch]

For anyone interested. There will be a candle light service at 1700 in the Whiting Field Wings Club Christmas eve Mon 24DEC07.

 

[BigIron]

For you interested in the Bible: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,318072,00.html

 

[jus2mch]

For you interested in the Bible: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,318072,00.html

That's nuckin futs.

 

[Birdman]

has me convinced that if god exists, he hates me. Or has a really sick sense of humor.

No need to for me to get into my back story, but I have reached much the same conclusion. Christians like to say that people avoid religion so that they can do whatever the hell they want. Which isn't the truth; you can be moral without being religious.

I think the idea that only Christians get into heaven is moronic. If Ghandi, the Dali Lama, or any of the other billions of decent people who aren't followers of Christ don't make it in then I doubt heaven's existence because that would be an incredibly petty thing for the merciful, loving God that I was taught about to do.

Oh yeah, and have you ever been to church? If heaven is full of people like that I don't want to fucking be there.

 

[Afterburner76]

He has a much better way of putting it than I can....

Religion (organized) may very well be the downfall of our society... it's getting scary.

watch the entire thing wheter you agree with him or not. While his points are comedic in nature, they make a lot of sense. Especially the latter half of the clip.

Would love to hear your thoughts on this one too.


This post was not meant to be argumentative... however, to know our thoughts on faith, we agnostics have to present why we lack that "faith".

Thanks for letting me post!

 

[Afterburner76]

Here is an interesting article that touches on faith and religion coupled with military service. It is not christian but parts of it are universal. It was an interesting article, to me especially, seeing the accommodations that are made for Jewish Sailors (both officially and privately from one sailor to another). Anyone know or serve under Captain Shelanksy?

http://www.jewishexponent.com/article/14337/

very interesting article! Thanks!

 

[raptor10]

He has a much better way of putting it than I can....

Religion (organized) may very well be the downfall of our society... it's getting scary.

watch the entire thing wheter you agree with him or not. While his points are comedic in nature, they make a lot of sense. Especially the latter half of the clip.

Would love to hear your thoughts on this one too.


This post was not meant to be argumentative... however, to know our thoughts on faith, we agnostics have to present why we lack that "faith".

Thanks for letting me post!

I tried to watch those clips but dude, come on it was Bill Maher, I'm gonna have to pull a Picasso on myself now... In response to the first video, I agree with the statement that if I was a value voter than in a choice between Hillary and Guilliani then my vote would have to go to Hillary to remain consistent with a value voters views, (for me personally Paul and Guilliani are the only Republican candidates that I could never get behind)

On the part where you said that organized religion would be the downfall of our society, could you elaborate? When you consider our first president said this:

Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

It is substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who, that is a sincere friend to it, can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?

It seems clear what direction the founders of our country intended it to go...

 

[The Chief]

I have recently developed an interest in religion, .... choose to share.

Dare to step in here? Dislike the "arguments", so typical. I like the one which something, forget who, said to the effect " .... I am catholic, while not perfect it works for me. However, I wanna take this opportunity to tell you how much I hate evangelicals :icon_rage:icon_rage....." While this is a typical way to build self esteem, that is to diminish everyone else to puff ones self, the approach is most often seen in arguments of religion. Me thinks it show uncertainty and some immaturity.

With that segue, I will return to the question posed.

I grew up going to church, attended Sunday School, two uncles were "men of the cloth". Over the years have reflected upon the early years, "investigated" other religions, and found none that I do not like. I am however, sad to say, that I am ashamed of some of the stuff that I learned in my younger years. While I do have very deeply felt religious beliefs, they are mine and mine alone. I do not feel compelled to try to convince others of their validity or to defend my decision not to attend regular church services/functions. I feel no ill will toward those that proselytize, I listen, answer where I can and leave it at that. Hate is not in the mixture.

Having said all that, I do think that the Bible is wonderful. I point to the Psalms as an example. So much joy, so much comfort found therein. Whom amongst us cannot be calmed by the 23 Psalm? Further, the beginning of the Bible begins with "In the beginning .... " Was there something before the beginning? While there is so much hatred and disagrement in those first 31 verses, how cannot one not stand in awe at what is revealed, at least in my eyes. Let me explain: What I believe the Chapter said is that there was a beginning, that time is relative, that is "one morning and one night" may be on another scale millions of years. Further, confirming there was a beginning, there must be and end? Now how is that possible. What is on the other side of the beginning line and what is on the other side of the ending line? The only way is that time is circular not straight line as we can concieve it.

Merry Christmas and very best wishing to you.

 

[Brett327]

The whole "morality can't exist without religion" argument is completely bogus and has been soundly debunked by many people more articulate than myself. I wasn't going to get involved in this thread because many of you will interpret my views as "religion bashing," but since the OP was asking for differing views and opinions, I think we owe him a counterpoint to all the Christian kumbayah we've seen thus far.

As many of you know, I'm an atheist - have been since I was about 6 or 7. Here's the God's honest truth: I don't understand how anyone with a full understanding and appreciation of the psychological and sociological origins of religious belief, can honestly say they buy into the concept of the supernatural. This leaves the vast majority of people with two options - you're either ignorant, or your delusional (perhaps both).

I know reading substantive academic work is anathema to many of you, but there is so much great stuff out there - some of it by some very smart theologians - about just what it is within Man's nature that creates the need for religious thought. I recommend the following (among others):

Freud
Abe Maslow

That ought to get things rolling.

Oh, and Merry Christmas!

Brett

 

[Mumbles]

bah humbug!!

 

[Harrier Dude]

I can't stand people who are intolerant of other peoples religion! And the Muslims.

Seriously, as a Christian, I work on my relationship with God on a personal level along with my family. I would love for all of you to have the same religious happiness that my faith has brought me, but I'm not one to force it on anybody. Not only is it wrong, but by and large (as evidenced by many of the posts above) it has the exact opposite effect.

I try to show the path to a relationship with God to anybody who wants to have one. I try to do this by living a good life, as flawed as it may be, being honest with people, and trying to set a good example as a Christian as Christ himself did. I can never come close to being perfect becasue I am human and am subject to the same mistakes and temptations as any other human. It's by constantly seeking self improvement in all that I do that I strengthen my relationship with God. If the happiness that I get from my relationship with God inspires somebody to build their own relationship with Him, then I have achieved some small level of success. If it doesn't, then I can add that to the long list of shortcomings that I have accrued during this lifetime.

You are going to see hypocrites and hypocrisy in every religion and in those with no religion. If you're honest, you'll see it in yourself as well. I know I do. As humans, we're imperfect and fallible. What you do with yourself and your mistakes is entirely up to you. If you choose to accept the redemption that Christ offers you, as I have, you will experience the happiness that comes from a relationship with Him. If you find another way to deal with it, then I hope you nothing but the best.

I can tell you that condemning the way anybody else deals with their faith, life, mistakes, and relationship with God will get you nowhere.

Good luck to you all, and have Merry Christmas.

 

[freshy]

My "religous thoughts"...

1. We are born with all the religion we need....a conscience. Don't be a buddy fucker, and don't stick your ding dong where it doesn't belong. Everything will be fine.

2. If God really cared what religion we were, or if we were Christian...then why would Christians be sub divided into 16,000 sects, and outnumbered by Muslims and Bhudists?

3. I don't think God answers prayers directly....But the hardest I have ever prayed was during Carrier Quals when I started out with 4 bolters and a screaming waveoff.

4. I think Benjamin Franklin said..."God must love us...he gave us beer."

5. I'm drunk...Merry Christmas!

 

[Afterburner76]

... and trying to set a good example as a Christian as Christ himself did. ...

Just so you know... Christ never set a good example as a Christian. He was Jewish. There was no such thing as Christianity when he was around...

 

[Raptor2216]

"Whosoever dies clothed in this Habit shall not suffer the fires of Hell."
"“Whosoever dies wearing this Scapular shall not suffer eternal fire.”
I assume the above is Catholic in origin.

Several years ago I had an opportunity to observe/assist an autopsy. The guy was soaked in fuel and should have been burned. Not even so much as a scorch mark anywhere. He was wearing several Catholic medallions and one scapular...scapula? which bore words similar to the above.
Faith or luck? I dunno. Sometimes I wonder if the two are not related...maybe God has decided that those who show faith will have some luck..sometimes good, sometimes bad.

I also find it interesting that some will say religion is a crutch. I think it is a crutch; one that many of us depend on and pay respects to. Not necessarily a bad thing.

What about the countless babies that die as a result of malnutrition , one terrible disease or another, cruelty and so on? What is the criteria for judging a newborn? In my opinion, I would rather take my chances with randomness as it relates to matters of life and death than to put my fate in the hands of a superior being who will judge me based on some rules we can NEVER know. I don't really understand why I even have to be judged for what I do by some superior being who made me into what I am.

I don't have the answers to life's big questions but here is my take on it. There was a time when the earth was considered to be the center of the universe. Fortunately, logic and reasoning correct that little mistake. Today, there are people who don't think life exists outside of our planet but I don't doubt for one second that there is life out there. In fact, it's foolish and arrogant to think otherwise. Unfortunately, in all likelihood, I'll be long gone by the time we can really begin exploring space but I wonder how religion will explain itself when life IS discovered on other planets. I wonder if people will continue to pretend that our existence actually matters in the bigger picture.

I don't claim to know the meaning of life and I know for a fact that NO ONE else does either. Everyone just has their best guess but that's about where it ends...a GUESS. I honestly don't think anything we do on this planet really matters. We have destroyed and damaged so much of each other and history bears witness to this fact. We have been on this planet for a split second in the "bigger picture" and it is arrogant to think we are the center of the universe. It is arrogant to think that there is some higher being up in the clouds who keeps watch over us and records what we do so that he/she/it can one day pass judgment and send us to the appropriate final destination. It comes down to a few thing for me. Religion is arrogant and there is no way to stop it because people are arrogant. We fight our wars, eat, sleep and screw so that we can perpetuate because at the end of the day, arrogance is programmed into our genes, or we would not survive. That is pretty much all we do and it is only important to us because we live on a bubble called the planet earth and since we don't have the ability to reach out into the vastness of space and determine otherwise, we go on being arrogant. That is what I believe.