Failure of Leadership..

[Renegade One]

R1, ..[and then a lot of good discourse]...this is an organization where CYA is growing more important than the mission. That's what most of us squeaky wheels here chafe under, and the answer to suck it the fuck up doesn't really encourage anyone to work hard, offer solutions, shake the trees etc.

Sorry for the perceived intel insult. Probably not the best interpretation of my intent…but I get it.

Yes, I do believe there was a bit less of the "CYA" mentality and a bit more of the "provide top cover" mentality for senior leaders in my day. I've said so many times, and I'll repeat: I was lucky.

Now…tell me more about "the penalty box". What precisely might THAT consist of?

As another contributor just told me (and I'm paraphrasing): "If we can't all speak our minds, why have a forum like this at all?"

 

[MasterBates]

I've never heard of an annual requirement. This is illustrative of the perpetual black cloud that is MB's wretched reality.

Mayport 2005 or so came up with that. Not sure if base or wing, but it was a pain.

Sent from a van down by the river via Tapatalk

 

[Gatordev]

Mayport 2005 or so came up with that. Not sure if base or wing, but it was a pain.

As I said, LONG gone by 2008. In 2008, the Wing didn't even have the know-how to utilize the system that tracks and records the training (they actually needed our help on the Reserve side to get it up and running). I wouldn't be surprised if it came from the base, but again, it was "fixed" relatively quick.

 

[Flash]

I keep hearing lamentations about all of this training we have to do in the Navy and yes, I bitch every year how I have to do the same shit twice. But do you all think leadership is making us do this in a vacuum? Why do you think we have to do 'training' for particular things? Because the same problems keep cropping up over and over again.

Why do we do SAP-R? Because stupid shit like this happens.

Why do folks have to do motorcycle training? Because the number of military personnel who die from motorcycle accidents is pretty high and continues to rise, they account for a disproportionate number of the vehicle deaths in the military, 2% of soldiers that have registered motorcycles die in an motorcycle related accident......and so on.

Suicide awareness training? This could be the reason.

TIP? This.

ATFP? Duh.

Who do you think is putting pressure on the military leadership to 'fix' these problems? Our political leadership. And who do you think they answer to? John and Jane Q Public. Have things changed over time? Certainly, because society has changed. Drunk driving and sexual harassment are anathemas now in the US. And what happens overseas doesn't stay overseas, pics of the you in that 'fine establishment' in Bangkok can be online and around the world in seconds. Grandpa killed a few SS troops that just surrendered, who knew but him and his buddies? Piss on some dead Taliban or throw a puppy and the whole world knows because your good buddy put it on Facebook or Youtube.

Do I like all this intrusive leadership bullshit that sometimes happens? No. Breathalyzers when you report to duty is not just intrusive but an insult to unit leaders. But when the Nay leadership sees a 45% drop in alcohol incidents from a pilot program, what the hell do you expect?

It ain't a rose garden but it sure ain't a black hole that many here portray it to be.

 

[scoolbubba]

We. Don't. Have. Money. To. Fly.

Or Deploy!

How the FUCK do we justify spending money on a new and different version of information awareness every year? Small spending cuts are still cuts...

 

[HooverPilot]

I keep hearing lamentations about all of this training we have to do in the Navy and yes, I bitch every year how I have to do the same shit twice. But do you all think leadership is making us do this in a vacuum? Why do you think we have to do 'training' for particular things? Because the same problems keep cropping up over and over again.

Why do we do SAP-R? Because stupid shit like this happens.

Why do folks have to do motorcycle training? Because the number of military personnel who die from motorcycle accidents is pretty high and continues to rise, they account for a disproportionate number of the vehicle deaths in the military, 2% of soldiers that have registered motorcycles die in an motorcycle related accident......and so on.

Suicide awareness training? This could be the reason.

TIP? This.

ATFP? Duh.

Who do you think is putting pressure on the military leadership to 'fix' these problems? Our political leadership. And who do you think they answer to? John and Jane Q Public. Have things changed over time? Certainly, because society has changed. Drunk driving and sexual harassment are anathemas now in the US. And what happens overseas doesn't stay overseas, pics of the you in that 'fine establishment' in Bangkok can be online and around the world in seconds. Grandpa killed a few SS troops that just surrendered, who knew but him and his buddies? Piss on some dead Taliban or throw a puppy and the whole world knows because your good buddy put it on Facebook or Youtube.

Do I like all this intrusive leadership bullshit that sometimes happens? No. Breathalyzers when you report to duty is not just intrusive but an insult to unit leaders. But when the Nay leadership sees a 45% drop in alcohol incidents from a pilot program, what the hell do you expect?

It ain't a rose garden but it sure ain't a black hole that many here portray it to be.

As a counterpoint - for my current job, I have to maintain worldwide, 96 hour deploy-ability. Just the sandbox requirements alone is 24 CBT's, 3 different classroom classes, a medical & dental visit, and a trip through a deployment center for gear (all annual requirements except gear issue). It takes about 7 days of dedicated, almost all day effort just to do the CBT's. none of them are specific to the job, just theater entry requirement types of stuff. This is a bit ridiculous.


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[Flash]

........How the FUCK do we justify spending money on a new and different version of information awareness every year? Small spending cuts are still cuts...

Do you really think that kind of stuff cost anything significant? They aren't exactly known for their Hollywood-style production values. Plus you could argue that the cost of what they are trying to prevent far outweighs the small cost of a new video or PPT presentation.

 

[Flash]

As a counterpoint - for my current job, I have to maintain worldwide, 96 hour deploy-ability. Just the sandbox requirements alone is 24 CBT's, 3 different classroom classes, a medical & dental visit, and a trip through a deployment center for gear (all annual requirements except gear issue). It takes about 7 days of dedicated, almost all day effort just to do the CBT's. none of them are specific to the job, just theater entry requirement types of stuff. This is a bit ridiculous.

I had to endure that as well, unfortunately some of it was driven by the Army. And if you are taking that long to do the CBTs you haven't found the advantage of repeatedly clicking the mouse button to see how fast you can really get through them......

 

[MasterBates]

As I said, LONG gone by 2008. In 2008, the Wing didn't even have the know-how to utilize the system that tracks and records the training (they actually needed our help on the Reserve side to get it up and running). I wouldn't be surprised if it came from the base, but again, it was "fixed" relatively quick.

I know it's gone. I was more replying to Brett jabbing at me.

At some point, they are going to add so much admin overhead to the military, that all we will do is admin. Hell, it's the ONLY thing I've done in the reserves in the last year.

 

[scoober78]

I know it's gone. I was more replying to Brett jabbing at me.

At some point, they are going to add so much admin overhead to the military, that all we will do is admin. Hell, it's the ONLY thing I've done in the reserves in the last year.

Well, I know I feel safer. Thanks Master!

 

[LET73]

I keep hearing lamentations about all of this training we have to do in the Navy and yes, I bitch every year how I have to do the same shit twice. But do you all think leadership is making us do this in a vacuum? Why do you think we have to do 'training' for particular things? Because the same problems keep cropping up over and over again...

I think the frustration comes from the fact that we have all this training, and all the things you brought up still keep happening. Throwing more identical training at the problem clearly isn't fixing it (isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?). What does fix it is leadership at all levels, but that's a lot harder to measure and enforce. I don't believe there is a quick or easy fix, but I understand that there's plenty of pressure to try and find one.

 

[squeeze]

I had to endure that as well, unfortunately some of it was driven by the Army. And if you are taking that long to do the CBTs you haven't found the advantage of repeatedly clicking the mouse button to see how fast you can really get through them......

And there in lies the rub. No one honestly goes through these CBTs with any intent of gleaming knowledge. They click through them as fast as possible, start the video and walk away, or whatever else it takes to get through them without actually doing them. Aren't these designed to address/correct issues thats higher deems important? Yet we institutionally gundeck them. So what's the point? That screams "cover your ass".

We know no one does these as intended. We know no one really gains any knowledge from these. So why do we continue to use this method of education? PII, IA, SAPR, TIP, and so on and so forth. They all use this method and we all treat them the same. We only do them to get the OpsO/XO off our backs because our "ground training" statistics aren't as pretty as some higher up would like. And they're only pushing it because someone will ping them.

Epic, epic fail.

 

[Gatordev]

...that all we will do is admin. Hell, it's the ONLY thing I've done in the reserves in the last year.

As you continue to remind us, you're not in a freakin' unit! What else did you expect to be doing? Admin is your one and only job as a Strategic SELRES. This is like going to a helo squadron and complaining you don't ever get any fixed-wing time.

 

[HAL Pilot]

This is like going to a helo squadron and complaining you don't ever get any fixed-wing time.

MB solved this problem.....

 

[Renegade One]

Just spitballing here, but maybe this thread really isn't all about the insane requirements of Motorcycle Safety Class (Oh, the humanity!).

Just so that I don't (again) violate the whole thing about "copyright privileges/policies": Here's the linkie:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/feb/12/kiland-and-fretwell-40-years-later-remembering-vie/

But for sake of brevity, here's the salient parts:

Lessons in leadership from our heroesBy Taylor Baldwin Kiland and Peter FretwellTuesday, February 12, 2013Forty years ago, on Feb. 12, 1973, our nation started to welcome home 591 American prisoners of war, most of them from the infamous Hanoi Hilton POW camp. Some of the released prisoners had been held for up to nine years, and U.S. military doctors expected broken men to step off the C-141s landing at Clark Air Force Base in the Philippines. Instead, they found fewer than 5 percent of the POWs suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder.Using just their brains and tin cups, these Americans created their own high-performance society….They built a civilized culture against all odds – including extreme torture and extended isolation. For the longest-held of the POWs, this duress lasted more than eight years. No other group of POWs in our nation’s history has ever been held captive as long as these men.

[The interviewed individual]… shared a cell with James Stockdale, the senior ranking officer among the group of POWs, and their de facto leader. They were trying to communicate with recent “shoot-downs,” other aviators whose planes had been recently shot down. Captured and incarcerated, many of these men were still recovering from their aircraft ejection injuries.
“Stockdale had a broken leg...“Jim would get on the floor and ‘clear’ and I’d get up on the concrete bunk and talk to [a new guy] down the back side out of the window. We happened to be on the back of the jail. We would tell him essentially how the cow eats the cabbage [how the things worked in the prison system] and, that ‘you’re going to be all right.’” [Ed.: We might call this "coloring between the lines"…inn some scenarios.]
On this particular night, they were finally caught. “...an officer came charging down the hall. Jim barely got up before the door opened. I’m standing there and the door pops open and here’s this little North Vietnamese guy wearing Air Force 2nd Lieutenant bars. Turns out he was a camp commander. He wasn’t a lieutenant – he was masquerading as one. Jim hauled off and decked him right there. Just knocked him down. And, I thought, ‘…We’re in deep serious now.’ And we were.”Punishment was immediate and harsh. ...“Jim got the worst punishment.”Why did Stockdale intentionally assault the camp commander by punching him in the face? ...“Frankly, I think he was protecting me. You know, that’s a characteristic of leadership.” Stockdale exhibited several noteworthy characteristics of a great leader that day. He stayed focused on the POWs’ agreed-upon mission, he chose his battle carefully and — without fear of personal consequences — he sacrificed himself to protect those under him. He asked nothing of his followers that he would not first deliver himself. When pain was on the agenda, Stockdale didn’t delegate. He led.Even today, Mr. Johnson found Stockdale’s actions a model for himself and others in challenging leadership positions: ...When we honor the legacy and values of outstanding leadership like Jim, America will win.”