Failure of Leadership..

[Harrier Dude]

His anecdotes are one of the many examples of just how far we've gone since we placed special trust and confidence in our sailors and junior officers. We trust guys to operate reactors, drop bombs, employ machine guns, use the ROE to make life and death decisions for months at a time, but we don't trust them to go on liberty, take a road trip, or have a few drinks on a Tuesday.

Why?

Because we are too fucking heavy at the top, and no O6 is going to let an SDO make a decision that might get his O7 boss's panties in a wad, which might end his career before he gets to hang a flag with a star off it in front of comcincofficesupplyphibrongrp7's admin building.

How do we have more admirals and generals now, when technology keeps us more connected than ever before, than we did in WW2, a war we won soundly? Maybe when you give some young guys enough bullets, beans, and authority to make a decision, some risky shit that needs to get done happens.

JFK would have gone to mast, not for losing his PT boat, but because his decision to pull a sailor with his teeth impacted dental readiness and made him non deployable. The queep, overhead, bullshit, bureaucracy is a function of every O6 needing a fiefdom, and the pissing contests involved therein. You want to save the Navy? Start by cutting the top down to actual commanders, and unload the 20% just hanging on, inventing new bullshit reasons to justify their existence everyday. Why does TSC need an O5 in charge of it, when an O3/O4 with some juice from the commodore could do the same job for less, and be more tactically relevant.

I haven't seen a suggestion from you other than shut up and color, and more of the same is what got us in this fucking mess.

No, THIS.

FUCKING. THIS.

 

[scoober78]

His anecdotes are one of the many examples of just how far we've gone since we placed special trust and confidence in our sailors and junior officers. We trust guys to operate reactors, drop bombs, employ machine guns, use the ROE to make life and death decisions for months at a time, but we don't trust them to go on liberty, take a road trip, or have a few drinks on a Tuesday.


JFK would have gone to mast, not for losing his PT boat, but because his decision to pull a sailor with his teeth impacted dental readiness and made him non deployable. The queep, overhead, bullshit, bureaucracy is a function of every O6 needing a fiefdom, and the pissing contests involved therein. You want to save the Navy? Start by cutting the top down to actual commanders, and unload the 20% just hanging on, inventing new bullshit reasons to justify their existence everyday. Why does TSC need an O5 in charge of it, when an O3/O4 with some juice from the commodore could do the same job for less, and be more tactically relevant.

At the risk of wading into a hornets' nets...I can see where both sides are coming from here. At various times I've felt pulled more to one side or the other, as I'm sure anyone here who's really put some thought into it has...Here's a bit of food for thought though...

In WWII a front line, Packard/Merlin equipped P-51 Mustang cost about $51,000. Adjusted to 2013 dollars, you are looking at somewhere just south of $750000. F-18F cost? Call it a cool 50 million. Similar exponential cost explosions have occurred all throughout DoD, including in simply training our folks. The amount of money invested in an individual, A-school trained, just ready for the fleet sailor has exploded since the "golden era" everyone so longingly refers to. Just like any investor, Uncle wants a little security for the larger investment. Bottom line? That's a big part of what's driving the "big brother" mentality. Enough with these unqualified "I wish we were in our grandparents Army/Navy/MC etc...." It neglects the reality of your job.

There is simply no comparison about the impact on the fiscal bottom line that one sailor/pilot/soldier etc...can have now vs. 50 years ago. To neglect that in your polemic about the woes of the nanny chain of command is shortsighted. Trust me, I get it. I live here too. I'd rather not suffer through "liberty lectures" and NKO nonsense and, and, and, and, and...but if you want to have a serious talk about removing some of that oversight, then you have to talk about other ways to guarantee the tremendous investment that is made in every one of us. Fact. Not argument.

 

[Brett327]

I find some truths in both posts. They're not mutually exclusive.

My sense is that there's a certain amount of buyer's remorse for a lot of the guys who aren't satisfied with their service experience and that the service just isn't what they thought it would be. Sure things have evolved a bit over the years, but not as radically as some would suggest. So, when guys are unhappy because they were expecting the service to be something that it never was in the first place, I find it curious that the service is said to be at fault, when in reality it was the individual who just didn't know what they were getting themselves into.

I don't think this applies to everyone, obviously, but I put it out there as food for introspective thought.

 

[Renegade One]

No, THIS.

FUCKING. THIS.

Okay…I can see you desire to "lead from the front". Be happy in your work.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

I find some truths in both posts. They're not mutually exclusive.

Exactly.

So, when guys are unhappy because they were expecting the service to be something that it never was in the first place, I find it curious that the service is said to be at fault, when in reality it was the individual who just didn't know what they were getting themselves into.

In all fairness, I don't think any of us can really say we knew what we were getting ourselves into when we first joined. We knew it would be one hell of a life change, but other than that what did we really know. Even if we knew about liberty risk briefings or the lengths we go to for electrical safety, would that have stopped us from joining? Probably not.

In WWII a front line, Packard/Merlin equipped P-51 Mustang cost about $51,000. Adjusted to 2013 dollars, you are looking at somewhere just south of $750000. F-18F cost? Call it a cool 50 million. Similar exponential cost explosions have occurred all throughout DoD, including in simply training our folks. The amount of money invested in an individual, A-school trained, just ready for the fleet sailor has exploded since the "golden era" everyone so longingly refers to. Just like any investor, Uncle wants a little security for the larger investment.

Military industrial complex. Fix that and maybe you fix some of these other "leadership" issues.

 

[LET73]

I see a lot of senior leadership getting brilliant ideas, chasing the shiny object of the week, and wasting my time--and my sailors' time--with asinine shit. It's frustrating. Now, I'm well aware I'm a junior LT, and that sometimes I do need to shut up and color, as the solutions to the problem are well above my paygrade. That said, sometimes the people with the power to solve the problems don't know or care that the problems exist, and they need to be informed, not in a bitching and moaning kind of way, but in a "here's what's wrong, here's why it's important, and here's a way that might fix it" kind of way.

 

[scoober78]

Military industrial complex. Fix that and maybe you fix some of these other "leadership" issues.

No argument. Wasn't trying to get into why that explosion has happened so much as the effects it has caused.

 

[phrogdriver]

Officers of today may be responsible for more money, but generally they are responsible for far fewer lives. Read WWII histories and be prepared to get blown away by the sizes of the units officers commanded at far more junior grades and often age than today.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

No argument. Wasn't trying to get into why that explosion has happened so much as the effects it has caused.

I know. I was just trying to point out that we may be trying to solve the symptom and not the cause.

 

[scoober78]

Officers of today may be responsible for more money, but generally they are responsible for far fewer lives. Read WWII histories and be prepared to get blown away by the sizes of the units officers commanded at far more junior grades and often age than today.

Psst. For accounting purposes, lives are money....and we aren't just talking about O's. Further, US military personnel in 1945? 12.1 million. Now? 1.5 million. No kidding more junior folks were responsible for more people.

 

[Renegade One]

...the people with the power to solve the problems don't know or care that the problems exist...

I find myself repeating myself…again:

You could not be more wrong. They [the people with the power..] probably lose more sleep than you do over the impact of the decisions/policies that is in their job jar to make. They sleep only when they convince themselves that they can trust "the new breed" to support, uphold and enforce" those decisions on their behalf.

PSST: The New Breed..that'd be YOU...

Don't let them down. Unless, someday, you no longer expect to be supported by your personal version of "the new breed". As ye sow, so shall ye reap.

 

[phrogdriver]

Psst. For accounting purposes, lives are money....and we aren't just talking about O's. Further, US military personnel in 1945? 12.1 million. Now? 1.5 million. No kidding more junior folks were responsible for more people.

Thanks, captain sarcasm. Point being that their responsibility was far greater, no matter how one quantifies it, which belies your earlier statement.

 

[Renegade One]

Thanks, captain sarcasm. Point being that their responsibility was far greater, no matter how one quantifies it, which belies your earlier statement.

I'm going to go "Weapons Hold" until you tell me who the errant/sarcastic "captain" might be. I'm just guessing that it isn't Scoober78…but I've been wrong before.

 

[phrogdriver]

Actually it was Scoober I was referring to. My, you're in condition one, aren't you?

 

[LET73]

I find myself repeating myself…again:

You could not be more wrong. They [the people with the power..] probably lose more sleep than you do over the impact of the decisions/policies that is in their job jar to make. They sleep only when they convince themselves that they can trust "the new breed" to support, uphold and enforce" those decisions on their behalf.

Don't let them down. Unless, someday, you no longer expect to be supported by your personal version of 'the new breed".

I believe they lose sleep (I'd say hope, but losing sleep sucks; I don't wish that on people). I've been known to lose sleep over my sailors and the decisions I make that affect them, and maybe I was wrong to imply that that universally disappears after a certain promotion board. Senior officers have plenty more responsibility than I do, and I know it's easy for me to criticize when I'm not seeing the full picture. Mostly I was trying to say that sometimes senior leadership is not aware of some of the issues, and it's my responsibility to let them know there's a problem, and to offer a potential solution. If I'm wrong or not seeing the big picture, I accept that, but in addition to not letting my leadership down, I like to try not to let my sailors down, and if they or I come up with an idea that improves their ability to conduct the mission, I think I need to bring it up. Pointing out a problem to my boss and offering a solution isn't a lack of support; I think it's the opposite. It's the same thing I expect from my sailors--identify a problem, think of a solution, and if it makes sense, let's implement it; if not, tough. How is that letting anyone down?