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F-14 and F/A-18E

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Blutonski816

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It's Northrop-Grumman now, right??
There's about as much of Grumman in N-G as there is Martin Marrietta in Lockheed-Martin..
Besides, the reason Northrop's in on it is because they started it all when they put together th YF-17 for the LWF competition.
 
Brett327 said:
Sounds like far fetched rumor mongering to me.

Brett

Heard it had something to do with Grumman getting rather arrogant and essentially acting like they had a monopoly on naval tactical air. So they offered a pretty expensive package. Supposedly that's what ticked off then SecDef Cheney. I don't recall what aircraft was under discussion at the time...maybe an issue with the fricking Flying Dorito.
 

AirRyan

Registered User
Yeah, no doubt Grumman's ignorante management at the time really screwed things up as well, but it's not like it's any different today when you look at McDD fighter jet business at Boeing. And I think the A-12 really made some bad blood between people at the time as well.
 

SteveG75

Retired and starting that second career
None
A-12 Avenger II was being built by McDonnell Douglas and General Dynamics.

Guess that "bad blood" didn't hurt McDonnell Douglas and their Hornet pipeline too badly.

And Admiral Gillcrest is eminently suited to tell the Tomcat story but note this quote from a review of the book: "The book is remarkable not only because of the authoritative detail but because Gillcrist is so candid. He's sometimes biased and doesn't mind admitting it--but he always back up a controversial opinion with facts." He has written some good but controversial articles for Flight Journal magazine as well. His opinion is as good, as valid, and as biased as an F/A-18E/F test pilots is for the other side.
 

AirRyan

Registered User
Biased in favor of the Tomcat, that's for sure - but that doesn't mean it's any different when we hear the constant party line about the Super Hornet today from people trying to sell it and keep the funds in the pipeline for the new upgrades and such.

I was more so inferring a rift between the Navy and the DOD for the A-12 fiasco, but the way I worded it I can see where I made my mistake. I think the DOD no longer gave the Navy quite the priority on the funds that they once did, but then again that was two different administrations of completely opposite political parties, so who knows. Suffice to say, I think some heads rolled and changes were made after the A-12 deal to try and prevent such a thing happening again.
 
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Blutonski816

Guest
SteveG75 said:
And Admiral Gillcrest is eminently suited to tell the Tomcat story but note this quote from a review of the book: "The book is remarkable not only because of the authoritative detail but because Gillcrist is so candid. He's sometimes biased and doesn't mind admitting it--but he always back up a controversial opinion with facts." He has written some good but controversial articles for Flight Journal magazine as well. His opinion is as good, as valid, and as biased as an F/A-18E/F test pilots is for the other side.


It's been my experience that controversy can always end up being very instrumental in starting much-needed change. :icon_wink
Although in this case it looks like the fight is pretty much a futile one... :(
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
AirRyan said:
I was more so inferring a rift between the Navy and the DOD for the A-12 fiasco
I can't remember where, for the life of me, but I saw the A-12 prototype sitting in some hangar somewhere collecting dust. I remember thinking to myself, "Hmm...that's an A-12, good times!"

Brett
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Brett327 said:
I can't remember where, for the life of me, but I saw the A-12 prototype sitting in some hangar somewhere collecting dust. I remember thinking to myself, "Hmm...that's an A-12, good times!"Brett

BEAM ME UP, Scotty !!
A-12 Avenger mock-up Try this link for more info: A-12 Avenger II - Full Scale Mockup


A12hanger.jpg
avngrfly.jpg
At least this Avenger flew ...

updatba.gif
ROGER BALL !!
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Ahh...JRB Ft Worth. There you go. Great place to Det to, BTW. I was there this past spring and a thunderstorm blew the hangar doors of its tracks and on to one of our Prowlers.

Bad times,

Brett
 
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Blutonski816

Guest
When I first saw the A-12 I had a feeling it probably wouldn't become a reality... at least not for the time being. It's pretty much a given that concept aircraft that look like the'yre lightyears ahead won't make it to the fleet. Congress would much rather spend money on improving a "simple and cost-efficient" design than pony up the cash for the R&D on a new airframe...
Sure it could have done that with the F-14, but I guess the logic there was, instead of continuing funding for the Tomcat (which, admittedly would cost more than the Super Hornet), they looked at the hornet and said "hey, that's cheap, and it can do more than one job... Let's upgrade that."

Of course then there was all the mismanagement stuff, but I still think that the Dorito wouldn't see it's first flight...

Brett- I saw the photos from that. Total mess...
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
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Super Moderator
Contributor
Blutonski816 said:
Brett- I saw the photos from that. Total mess...
Yeah, I've sen those floating around the internet. It turned out to look worse than it was. Our squadron was deploying in about 6 weeks, so our wing just traded the jet to a squadron that had just got back. I think they flew it out of there after about 3 months of P&E team work.

Brett
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I remember reading where a two ship patrol of F-14's could have scored a few kills on Iraqi MiG's but the AF AWACS couldn't break the Navy's security code in order to tell the Tom's to turn off their radars. The Iraqi MiG's saw the big radar of the Tomcat, did a 180 and bugged out before the Tomcats could get them. And of course, the problems of the single mission Tomcat were only highlighted by the conflict and likely gave Dick all the evidence he thought he needed to cancel the program.

There was at least one incident during the Gulf War that I saw a pretty thorough brief on where a pair of F-14's possibly could have gotten some kills but did not because of comms problems, the AWACS couldn't talk to them. There was no grand conspiracy and the Iraqi's did not run away, they flew right under them. It resulted in a Saudi F-15 pilot in getting 2 kills, shooting down a pair of Mirage F-1's.

I have read some of RADM Gilchrist's articles and found them to be pretty biased. 'If only we would do what I say, all of Naval Aviation's problems would be solved' seems to be his general attitude. The Tomcat is an old design that is past its prime, even the F-14D was just an improvement the same old tired design. They are maintenance headaches and take many man hours for every hour of flight (sounds a lot like a Prowler). Most importantly, they cost a lot of money to maintain. They gave good service, let them pass into the sunset gracefully.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Pretty awesome that they got the guy to eject - save your ammo for another engagement. I wonder how many other random Iraqi pilots in the area heard that call on guard and pulled the handle just in case.

Good times,

Brett
 
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