Ensign with a dui charge

[scoober78]

There is a BIG difference in my book between blowing .08 at a DUI checkpoint, which I feel are illegal, and are often being contested in court, and being drunk at .16

I am no fan of DUI checkpoints either...that said I have to respectfully disagree with you. In both circumstances the driver is legally intoxicated. Period. If the problem rests with the enforcement method (DUI checkpoints) then fight that battle, or if it lies with the legal limit (.08, .1 etc..), then change the law. Neither of these things reside within the realm of CO's discretion however.

I hear your point about discretion but I think that we accept absolute policies all the time. Think about the PRT. If someone cannot pass the PRT do you think that it should be at the CO's discretion whether or not they should be allowed in the Navy? What about uniform standards? Meet the standard or go home. We accept it with many policies, why not this one?

 

[scoober78]

I hear where you're coming from, but zero tolerance policies are counterproductive and lead to ridiculous things like high school kids getting expelled for having asprin (drugs) or a nail file (weapon).

Those examples are ambiguous though. What is a drug...what is a weapon are all subjective and ambiguous...of course there is discretion here. DUI is not subjective. If you are operating a vehicle and your BAC is over the legal limit, be that .08 or .1 etc...you are driving under the influence. Period.

 

[Kycntryboy]

While you're at it, don't change lanes without a signal, get off your damn cellphone, look BOTH WAYS before pulling out into a street, don't drive sleepy... oh yeah, don't speed. Speed kills.

Sounds like a stand down brief to me

 

[Brett327]

Those examples are ambiguous though. What is a drug...what is a weapon are all subjective and ambiguous...of course there is discretion here. DUI is not subjective. If you are operating a vehicle and your BAC is over the legal limit, be that .08 or .1 etc...you are driving under the influence. Period.

But real life is seldom as cut a dried as you would have us believe. What about the guy who's sleeping off his buzz in the backseat of his car and gets a DUI (happened in my command)? Any discretion warranted there? Same punishment as the guy with a .24 BAC driving the wrong way down I-5 that causes a multi-car pile-up? The civilian judge has all kinds of discretion within his sentencing guidelines. Why would you rob a CO of that?

Brett

 

[squorch2]

Sounds like a stand down brief to me

My bigger point was that DUIs, while bad, aren't the end all/be all of things that make driving dangerous. MADD and the neo-prohibitionists would have us believe otherwise.

 

[squorch2]

But real life is seldom as cut a dried as you would have us believe. What about the guy who's sleeping off his buzz in the backseat of his car and gets a DUI (happened in my command)? Any discretion warranted there? Same punishment as the guy with a .24 BAC driving the wrong way down I-5 that causes a multi-car pile-up? The civilian judge has all kinds of discretion within his sentencing guidelines. Why would you rob a CO of that?

Brett

In many states, if you blow between a .02 and .08 and the cop determines you're "impaired," you can be slapped with a DWI. How do you handle that if there's no discretion other than the cop who universally writes down "I smelled a strong odor of alcohol" regardless of the actual condition of the driver?

By the way, Master, it looks like you may be a future drunk driver, according to MADD: "Opponents of sobriety checkpoints tend to be those who drink and drive frequently and are concerned about being caught."

 

[MasterBates]

I am more concerned from a civil liberties standpoint. I am against checkpoints other than those at National Borders, or Secure (or private) installations.

And, MADD is one of those nanny-statist feel-good orgs. You try to argue with them, and they get hysterical and start screaming at you that their child/spouse/friend is dead because of "people like you". Hard to argue in a civil manner with such types.

I had numerous run-ins with them when I held varuous jobs in my fraternity. They wanted to "monitor" our parties, and have a mandatory DUI checkpoint to leave. Run by them, of course. We just enforced a "SOBER DRIVER" policy ourselves, and if they were not, we had someone drive them home.

Not too far of a slope to slide down from DUI Checkpoints "For The Children" to "vere are your PAPERS".

 

[Brett327]

I am more concerned from a civil liberties standpoint. I am against checkpoints other than those at National Borders, or Secure (or private) installations.

And, MADD is one of those nanny-statist feel-good orgs. You try to argue with them, and they get hysterical and start screaming at you that their child/spouse/friend is dead because of "people like you". Hard to argue in a civil manner with such types.

I had numerous run-ins with them when I held varuous jobs in my fraternity. They wanted to "monitor" our parties, and have a mandatory DUI checkpoint to leave. Run by them, of course. We just enforced a "SOBER DRIVER" policy ourselves, and if they were not, we had someone drive them home.

Not too far of a slope to slide down from DUI Checkpoints "For The Children" to "vere are your PAPERS".

DUI checkpoints have been repeatedly challenged in various courts. The courts have determined that the state has an interest in maintaining safety on the public roadways which outweighs the individual's expectation of freedom from an unwarranted search. Like it or not, that's the law of the land. There's a reason the "slippery slope" argument is a logical fallacy.

Brett

 

[phrogpilot73]

Those examples are ambiguous though. What is a drug...what is a weapon are all subjective and ambiguous...of course there is discretion here. DUI is not subjective. If you are operating a vehicle and your BAC is over the legal limit, be that .08 or .1 etc...you are driving under the influence. Period.

Agreed... HOWEVER, and I think this is the point that Brett is making. First, you are facing both military and civilian legal systems. The civilian system is generally going to take the cut-and-dried view that you take. So then on top of that, destroy the mans career? Consider this:

A LCpl who gets his second DUI, and gets NJP'd. Add to the fact that there has been a pattern of misconduct (i.e. has assaulted officers, UA, stolen, etc...)

A 1stLt who has had a stellar track record, had two beers felt fine and ran out to get something at the store. Gets pulled over for a burned out headlight (not weaving, driving erratically), and gets a DUI. No patterns of misconduct, has shown remorse and on his own gets conseling, and perhaps even stops drinking entirely...

In your mind, these two people are the same and should be drummed out of the Navy/Marine Corps. If that's what you believe, I hope that you're a schedule writer and not an OIC of a shop with alot of Marines/Sailors. There's a lot of gray area in the fleet, and when you step in front of the CO to fight for your Marine/Sailor you had better not think its so cut and dried.

 

[scoober78]

In your mind, these two people are the same and should be drummed out of the Navy/Marine Corps. If that's what you believe, I hope that you're a schedule writer and not an OIC of a shop with alot of Marines/Sailors. There's a lot of gray area in the fleet, and when you step in front of the CO to fight for your Marine/Sailor you had better not think its so cut and dried.

First off...easy now. Please don't insinuate that I don't care about my people. I have been that guy in front of the green table explaining to the CO how ET3 ###### is a stand-up guy who made a mistake. I know what that is about.

NO! Those two people aren't the same. One may be a complete sack of ^&* and the other clearly isn't. They did however exhibit at least once, the same illegal behavior. That makes them similar. Perhaps nothing else does but...They broke the law.

But real life is seldom as cut a dried as you would have us believe. What about the guy who's sleeping off his buzz in the backseat of his car and gets a DUI (happened in my command)? Any discretion warranted there? Same punishment as the guy with a .24 BAC driving the wrong way down I-5 that causes a multi-car pile-up? The civilian judge has all kinds of discretion within his sentencing guidelines. Why would you rob a CO of that?

You bring up some good points here. A few questions though. Did the guy sleeping off his buzz fight the charge? I should certainly hope he did! Nearly all states require "operation" of the vehicle...and he clearly wasn't. By this standard, any intoxicated passenger in a vehicle could be arrested for DWI/DUI. Any lawyer worth a damn would have beaten this. Which brings me to my point...

No I wouldn't rob a CO of this discretion...but the CO would have discretion in any case. He could have said, "No, what you did was not DUI." End of story. Clearly the second case was...and they could have been sentenced accordingly. What I am saying is that someone convicted...guilty...of a DUI/DWI shouldn't be able to continue a succesful career in the Navy...just like someone who fails to meet current PT standards shouldn't. The CO retains ultimate authority because he can determine when someone has and has not met the standard...he just loses some ability to mitigate the results.

 

[Brett327]

What I am saying is that someone convicted...guilty...of a DUI/DWI shouldn't be able to continue a succesful career in the Navy...just like someone who fails to meet current PT standards shouldn't.

Your analogy of DUI and PRT is a flawed one. First, PRT failure doesn't equal ADSEP (or career killer), even after three failures. Second, PRT failure is not a crime and not subject to the military justice system. So your position is no second chances, huh? What else are you planning on applying that paradigm to? Lost tool = ADSEP? How about uniform infractions or being late to work? I guess I don't understand what the benefit would be under your vision of DUI enforcement? Please explain.

Brett

 

[BackOrdered]

But real life is seldom as cut a dried as you would have us believe. What about the guy who's sleeping off his buzz in the backseat of his car and gets a DUI (happened in my command)? Any discretion warranted there? Same punishment as the guy with a .24 BAC driving the wrong way down I-5 that causes a multi-car pile-up? The civilian judge has all kinds of discretion within his sentencing guidelines. Why would you rob a CO of that?

Brett

Wow.

 

[MasterBates]

Prime example of why "1 size fits all" policies are a bad idea.

 

[scoober78]

What else are you planning on applying that paradigm to? Lost tool = ADSEP? How about uniform infractions or being late to work? I guess I don't understand what the benefit would be under your vision of DUI enforcement? Please explain.

Come on Brett...enough of the reductio. You know what my point is here...acting like I intend to throw sloppy uniform wearers out of the Navy is disingenuous.

 

[Brett327]

Come on Brett...enough of the reductio. You know what my point is here...acting like I intend to throw sloppy uniform wearers out of the Navy is disingenuous.

I really don't see your point. What's to be gained by zero tolerance? What's the advantage over the status quo?

Brett