Energy Discussion

[exNavyOffRec]

We’re looking at it. Makes a lot of sense.

The big challenge is out west. But even in the East, there used to be quite a bit of freight moved that way, but now only passenger is electric. Diesel was just so cheap and easy, and who cared about carbon?

An in-between idea is to have sections of track with the catenaries (overhead wires) to charge the batteries, or to help in sections requiring “full grunt”.

One interesting thing is essentially they are all electric right now. The diesels turn generators that turn motors on the wheels. They brake by running the motors as generators, and heating up a big bank of resistors. Where the batteries rock is in capturing that braking energy instead of creating waste heat.

FLXdrive™

Wabtec is leading the transition to low-carbon rail operations with FLXdrive — the world’s first 100% battery-electric, heavy-haul locomotive.

www.wabteccorp.com

I could see the west being a challenge, I live next to a major east-west route and several time a years branches fall that could take out electrical lines.

 

[ABMD]

I could see the west being a challenge, I live next to a major east-west route and several time a years branches fall that could take out electrical lines.

This is common for all utilities.
They usually spent a large amount of time/money on vegetation management, pruning and cutting back trees and anything that could pose a risk to infrastructure. People complain all the time, but a hacked up tree is better than losing power for a few days in a storm.

 

[Alpha_Echo_606]

This is common for all utilities.
They usually spent a large amount of time/money on vegetation management, pruning and cutting back trees and anything that could pose a risk to infrastructure. People complain all the time, but a hacked up tree is better than losing power for a few days in a storm.

Please, they spend time and money trimming anything that has already cost them time and money. They don't give a rats Asz about what might cost them. I know from my property alone, we have spent too many a day in the cold because of trees!

 

[ABMD]

Please, they spend time and money trimming anything that has already cost them time and money. They don't give a rats Asz about what might cost them. I know from my property alone, we have spent too many a day in the cold because of trees!

Not all utilities are the same, see PG&E. Some state/local utility commissions are more critical of outage metrics than others.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

This is common for all utilities.
They usually spent a large amount of time/money on vegetation management, pruning and cutting back trees and anything that could pose a risk to infrastructure. People complain all the time, but a hacked up tree is better than losing power for a few days in a storm.

Most power lines around me are underground, if we lose power locally it often due to raccoon, or other animal in the substation, we do have some not underground and have lost power due to drunk drivers hitting a power pole (same pole hit twice in two weeks by two drunk drivers), or tree falling. The tracks near me they do trim branches back but I still see where branches or trees have fallen on them, you would have to have to clear a hundred feet or so from each side of the tracks to keep that from happening. The areas of higher risk should be easy to identify though.

 

[Randy Daytona]

We’re looking at it. Makes a lot of sense.

The big challenge is out west. But even in the East, there used to be quite a bit of freight moved that way, but now only passenger is electric. Diesel was just so cheap and easy, and who cared about carbon?

An in-between idea is to have sections of track with the catenaries (overhead wires) to charge the batteries, or to help in sections requiring “full grunt”.

One interesting thing is essentially they are all electric right now. The diesels turn generators that turn motors on the wheels. They brake by running the motors as generators, and heating up a big bank of resistors. Where the batteries rock is in capturing that braking energy instead of creating waste heat.

FLXdrive™

Wabtec is leading the transition to low-carbon rail operations with FLXdrive — the world’s first 100% battery-electric, heavy-haul locomotive.

www.wabteccorp.com

How bad are the transmission losses? It is my understanding that one of the limitations of wind energy in the Midwest is getting the electricity to where it is needed efficiently.

Hybridizing trains to recapture braking energy makes a LOT of sense. I’m sort of amazed that hasn’t happened already. Hydrogen as a fuel for trains does not make sense, at least not in our current economy. It will end up being dirtier than existing diesel platforms.

I have reservations about the cost effectiveness of hybrid systems for long haul trains. This isn’t the stop and go of city traffic but rather mile after hundreds of miles and then stopping on occasions. I don’t think the expense of batteries or capacitors large enough would be worth it.

 

[Alpha_Echo_606]

Not all utilities are the same, see PG&E. Some state/local utility commissions are more critical of outage metrics than others.

Bottom line is the dollar, that is all!

 

[Brett327]

Bottom line is the dollar, that is all!

Down with capitalism! Down with corporations! This is America, shipmate. What else were you expecting?

 

[SynixMan]

Nuclear Fusion Edges Toward the Mainstream

Long-shot money is flowing into start-ups that seek the energy of the stars. Driving the investments is a rising alarm about global warming.

www.nytimes.com

I’m kind of bullish on Fusion. Seemed like a pipe dream 20 years ago but I think it’ll be a player in the coming years. If we get that then we’re just stuck with figuring out how to get materials for batteries without funding child labor in Africa. Still need oil and gas for a bit but “peak oil” is probably close or already passed.

Natural gas is another thing entirely. I’m in a northern climate and alternatives for heating, namely air source heat pumps, are still pretty uncommon. Got a remodel coming up hopefully and weighing the options on that

 

[Brett327]

Nuclear Fusion Edges Toward the Mainstream

Long-shot money is flowing into start-ups that seek the energy of the stars. Driving the investments is a rising alarm about global warming.

www.nytimes.com

I’m kind of bullish on Fusion. Seemed like a pipe dream 20 years ago but I think it’ll be a player in the coming years. If we get that then we’re just stuck with figuring out how to get materials for batteries without funding child labor in Africa. Still need oil and gas for a bit but “peak oil” is probably close or already passed.

Natural gas is another thing entirely. I’m in a northern climate and alternatives for heating, namely air source heat pumps, are still pretty uncommon. Got a remodel coming up hopefully and weighing the options on that

I'm with you on fusion. I suspect that the aviation and maritime shipping sectors are going to be the most challenging to transition out of fossil fuels. I know there are a few electric airplanes out there, but I think we're a long way from high speed, long haul alternative to jets. Any good ideas/ S&T out there for how to power a cargo ship w/o fossil fuels?

 

[ABMD]

I'm with you on fusion. I suspect that the aviation and maritime shipping sectors are going to be the most challenging to transition out of fossil fuels. I know there are a few electric airplanes out there, but I think we're a long way from high speed, long haul alternative to jets. Any good ideas/ S&T out there for how to power a cargo ship w/o fossil fuels?

That guy I mentioned I listened to last week also mention Hydrogen fueled aircraft in the future…

 

[Jim123]

That guy I mentioned I listened to last week also mention Hydrogen fueled aircraft in the future…

I'd love to know how they solve affordable storage and logistics (both getting it to the airport and putting it on the airplane). It makes a pretty great rocket fuel, but the economics for those is a little different.

In general I don't like to poo-poo new technology, not outright anyway. That includes some pie in the sky stuff because I like the idea that people are trying new things and trying to solve problems. There are some things that leave me scratching my head though.

 

[taxi1]

I have reservations about the cost effectiveness of hybrid systems for long haul trains. This isn’t the stop and go of city traffic but rather mile after hundreds of miles and then stopping on occasions. I don’t think the expense of batteries or capacitors large enough would be worth it.

A bit surprising, but it’s still helpful.

The most efficient energy-wise speed to move goods is just about as slow as possible, but things have to get there, so there ends up being a time constraint.

Within that time constraint, you want to move goods at as constant of a speed as possible over the route to keep aero drag (dependent on speed) low. All the tracks, even out west, have ups and downs (1% grade being considered steep) and they have varying speed restrictions going into curves and towns, etc. There are single track segments where the train has to stop to deconflict with oncoming traffic. Every one of those decels and down grades offer energy to be grabbed and reused. It adds up to quite a lot getting lost right now.

 

[Randy Daytona]

A bit surprising, but it’s still helpful.

The most efficient energy-wise speed to move goods is just about as slow as possible, but things have to get there, so there ends up being a time constraint.

Within that time constraint, you want to move goods at as constant of a speed as possible over the route to keep aero drag (dependent on speed) low. All the tracks, even out west, have ups and downs (1% grade being considered steep) and they have varying speed restrictions going into curves and towns, etc. There are single track segments where the train has to stop to deconflict with oncoming traffic. Every one of those decels and down grades offer energy to be grabbed and reused. It adds up to quite a lot getting lost right now.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I wouldn’t have figured the gain in efficiency would be greater than the expense and complexity of the batteries.

 

[SynixMan]

I'm with you on fusion. I suspect that the aviation and maritime shipping sectors are going to be the most challenging to transition out of fossil fuels. I know there are a few electric airplanes out there, but I think we're a long way from high speed, long haul alternative to jets. Any good ideas/ S&T out there for how to power a cargo ship w/o fossil fuels?

A small fusion reactor with diesel as a backup could be possible. Similar to Sailing ships side mounted paddlewheels like we saw in the 19th century.