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Do you use an iPad in the cockpit? Would you?

What are your feelings on institution of an iPad type device as a replacement for a chart/pub bag?

  • This is a great idea, and I think it will help in the cockpit no matter the cost

    Votes: 107 82.3%

  • This is not required and a waste of time, effort, and money

    Votes: 3 2.3%

  • I think this is a good idea if it saves the Navy money

    Votes: 26 20.0%

  • an electronic device is more likely to be updated

    Votes: 35 26.9%

  • An electronic device will NOT be as effective as paper publications

    Votes: 4 3.1%
  • Total voters
    130
PUBSO? Is that really an F'ing job for someone? As in something you can call yourself to not just be a "squadron pilot"?
 
Brett327 said:
I'm not suggesting every platform has a moving map, just that they have a Nav system. I think the general debate here comes down to what would be nice to have vs. what NAVAIR is likely to authorize. It would be great if we all had a relatively inexpensive gucci moving map display that can do all the things the iPad can do. That said, I don't think NAVAIR is going to approve untested COTS navigation apps for you to fixate on in your cockpit while you shoot a quasi-GPS approach while ignoring your primary NAV source. If I can't legally shoot a GPS approach with my NAVAIR approved and tested EGI-based system becaue of some little detail like "integrity monitoring," then I can't imagine NAVAIR wants aircrew to be staring at the little moving dot on their iPad approach plates instead of referencing your HSI and DME.

Call me old fashioned, but I can't imagine trying to find your way on a high chart by scrolling around on an iPad. Doing proper route study (even for a XC airnav) means you don't have to use the search function to find a fix. More often than not, I want to be able to spread my high chart out to get a big picture perspective. I don't imagine one can do that on the iPad.
Click to expand...

I think you're right on this. I think there will be a platform level IFC to use the iPad in the aircraft for limited tactical use, but will never authorize it for primary navigation. Never. The iPad is not ruggedized to a mil spec or standard. It has not been tested for GPS integrity.

As a pilot, I think they're a cool tool to use for certain things.

As an engineering nerd up here in Pax, they don't pass the muster with complete aircraft integration. There are standards for a reason and thought it may seem sometimes that stuff moves slowly through the NAVAIR engineering process and acquisition processes up here, you should feel confident as aircrew that the USN/USMC goes to the lengths it does to give you a safe product. Don't go pissing about your PMA bumbling around trying to get you a usable product. Bring up your concerns to your TMS requirements officer to direct NAVAIR to develop/test/deliver a product that is sufficiently funded throughout it's lifecycle. NAVAIR fulfills requirements. Doesn't make them.

On a final note from my soap stand, those that are using the iPads in the aircraft: Please make sure you read the IFC for your platform carefully. It's not "iPads for everyone for whatever you want." Act outside of the clearance, you're on your own.

BI
 
Brett327 said:
Yeah, about that. I don't currently have a PUBSO. :( Does it go through the iTunes on your computer? I guess I've never loaded an app in any other way than the app store. I'll have to steal a CD from someone. As an aside, I can see a 45 minute transfer time being a real PITA if you have a bunch of iPads.
Click to expand...
Yea if I remember right it does go through ITunes.

MIDNJAC said:
PUBSO? Is that really an F'ing job for someone? As in something you can call yourself to not just be a "squadron pilot"?
Click to expand...
Haha yea, that's a collateral. I'm a Skeds-O/ADP too.
 
Brett327 said:
Yeah, about that. I don't currently have a PUBSO. :( Does it go through the iTunes on your computer? I guess I've never loaded an app in any other way than the app store. I'll have to steal a CD from someone. As an aside, I can see a 45 minute transfer time being a real PITA if you have a bunch of iPads.
Click to expand...

Brett, go here (or somewhere near it...it might redirect you...CAC required): https://www.extranet.nga.mil/servlet/ShowHomepage?menu=Products and Services

You can register for an account and then go in and get all the files Praying is talking about. One word of warning, you will need a Presidential order from your security manager as well as a Congressional hearing to get an account, but then after that, you're good. Or you can just touch base with a Security Manager at your current location and get their email and then put it in your application form.
 
Gatordev said:
I was wondering if the screen was a) NVG friendly (many LCDs are) and if not, b) how do you interact with the screen if it has a cover over it? Is the cover just a filtered screen protector?
Click to expand...

There is a flimsy screen that goes on that both protects it and make it NVG compatible.
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At least in my community, the iPad is pretty popular. I haven't used it in flight, but the guys I have talked to who have used it in country didn't talk about shooting approaches. They were using them to shoot bodies by allowing them to carry a boatload of maps and imagery IOT coordinate with the dudes on the ground with radios. Replacing FLIPS is pretty cool, but I think most of us can agree that using it to actually shoot an approach is a non-starter.
 
Gatordev said:
Brett, go here (or somewhere near it...it might redirect you...CAC required): https://www.extranet.nga.mil/servlet/ShowHomepage?menu=Products and Services

You can register for an account and then go in and get all the files Praying is talking about. One word of warning, you will need a Presidential order from your security manager as well as a Congressional hearing to get an account, but then after that, you're good. Or you can just touch base with a Security Manager at your current location and get their email and then put it in your application form.
Click to expand...
Cool. I do have an NGA account and am familiar with their stringent requirements. :)
 
A classmate has his NATOPS on his iPad. Considering P-3 tube NATOPS are something like 5 or 600 bucks a copy (not sure how much all our job aids are), might not be a bad idea.
 
JFman00 said:
A classmate has his NATOPS on his iPad. Considering P-3 tube NATOPS are something like 5 or 600 bucks a copy (not sure how much all our job aids are), might not be a bad idea.
Click to expand...

5 or 600? Pretty big spread.;)

$600 bucks for a book? Did they hire John Grisham to write it or something?
 
BigIron said:
I think you're right on this. I think there will be a platform level IFC to use the iPad in the aircraft for limited tactical use, but will never authorize it for primary navigation. Never. The iPad is not ruggedized to a mil spec or standard. It has not been tested for GPS integrity.

As a pilot, I think they're a cool tool to use for certain things.

As an engineering nerd up here in Pax, they don't pass the muster with complete aircraft integration. There are standards for a reason and thought it may seem sometimes that stuff moves slowly through the NAVAIR engineering process and acquisition processes up here, you should feel confident as aircrew that the USN/USMC goes to the lengths it does to give you a safe product. Don't go pissing about your PMA bumbling around trying to get you a usable product. Bring up your concerns to your TMS requirements officer to direct NAVAIR to develop/test/deliver a product that is sufficiently funded throughout it's lifecycle. NAVAIR fulfills requirements. Doesn't make them.

On a final note from my soap stand, those that are using the iPads in the aircraft: Please make sure you read the IFC for your platform carefully. It's not "iPads for everyone for whatever you want." Act outside of the clearance, you're on your own.

BI
Click to expand...

I wonder how much these things could save the Navy by eliminating the production cost of pubs sent out to squadrons every cycle. If you've ever been responsible for ordering pubs for the squadron, you know the cost is astounding and most of it is waste in the first place (how often do I need a Dakota low plate? Never.) You could replace all of our paper plates and such with a iPad and cut the waste. If you're worried about failure, then require a back-up iPad for the aircraft. If you still don't like it, then require a paper copy of the approaches into your planned field, then the rest is electronic. If you're still worried about it, then you'd better go put some tinfoil on your head because you're paranoid as hell.

I don't ever see the need to use the iPad for navigation in the 18. The tactical applications though make this thing worth every penny. We don't fly in country anymore with a phone book. So being able to roll over to a different target set and have imagery and such for wherever I am is indispensable. GPS would be a nice to have, but in order to meet the requirements, the WiFi and internets capabilities will have to be removed.

As far as your soap box goes, we do use the proper channels and they aren't so efficient. It takes a full year basically just to get an idea to the table. And then that gets argued and balanced vs the monies available. I think we are going to start falling behind with technology simply because it takes us so long to keep up. The fact that I don't use some sort of beefed-up USB for data transfer is mind boggling. Most Hornet/Super Hornet cards aren't anywhere close to a full GB of memory. There are 256 GB thumb drives now. There are other groups of Navy dudes who do their acquisition process way differently. They say "dude, I think I need X." Then they go to whoever and say "make me X." Then they get X and try it out in the field. Then they kill lots of bad guys with X. And their turnaround time is nothing. Now I know the Hornet community can't be that willy nilly about things, but I think we could move a little closer that way.
 
JFman00 said:
A classmate has his NATOPS on his iPad. Considering P-3 tube NATOPS are something like 5 or 600 bucks a copy (not sure how much all our job aids are), might not be a bad idea.
Click to expand...

Whne I was the RAG NATOPS Officer the gov't printing office ran out of H-60F/H manuals and wouldn't print more for 6 months.
In the interim I went to Kinkos and got manuals printed for less than $50 a manual. We did not include the "pull out system diagrams" since they are the size of 4 pieces of paper and would have made the cost go expential quickly. (custom size paper is expensive in the real world...)

So I highly doubt the $500-600 figure. Depending on the number of manuals printed, the inclusion (and number) of the multipage system diagrams, does it have a cover, etc; I could see the price being higher, but not $500-600.
 
pilot_man said:
There are other groups of Navy dudes who do their acquisition process way differently. They say "dude, I think I need X." Then they go to whoever and say "make me X." Then they get X and try it out in the field. Then they kill lots of bad guys with X. And their turnaround time is nothing.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but those guys are special and their ability to circumvent the normal procurement process is a matter of law, not just policy. Part of the reason they get to do this is because of their small size. The downside for a COTS procurement flop when you're buying 50 items is different than if the Navy is entering into a decades-long contract with a giant logistics, maintenance and support trail for 1000s of units. Sounds great, but the risk is too high if everyone used that model.
 
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