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CCW on campus...a list of places where it can happen

chupacabra

Member
pilot
Contributor
When looking to buy a carry pistol after getting my CHL while I was in school, the employee of the gun store I was in suggested I look up the "competing harms" or "necessity" legal defense when I told him I wouldn't be able to carry on a daily basis as a student.

Basically, it is a legal defense you could use to justify your actions when you intentionally break the law in order to avoid a greater harm. For example, even though you broke the law by carrying a weapon on campus, you were able to use your weapon to prevent a shooter from killing you and other students, so your harm prevented a greater harm.

In order for the defense to work, all of the following criteria have to be met:
1) that he was faced with a choice of evils and chose the lesser evil;
2) that he acted to prevent imminent harm;
3) that he reasonably anticipated a causal relation between his conduct and the harm to be avoided; and
4) that there were no other legal alternatives to violating the law

I think the biggest hangup would be on #1, as the choice is not an on-the-spot decision to break the law. Instead, you break the law repeatedly by carrying every day just in case you encounter a situation in which you need to use it.

I ended up not illegally carrying because I felt the chance of someone finding out about it and reporting me was a greater risk than potentially being a victim of a school shooter.

I could see the defense having some chance in a trial, and is something to at least consider for a student, especially if he has the "better to be judged by twelve than carried by six" mentality.

I did a brief online search for an instance where this or a similar situation had occurred, but couldn't find anything that dealt with illegal carrying of handguns. I'm sure Raptor will be along shortly with links if it has happened.
 

HueyCobra8151

Well-Known Member
pilot
There is nothing ILLEGAL about carrying weapons on a public campus. Public Universities are funded by tax dollars and so they must support the 2nd Amendment (and all the Bill of Rights).

They will just expel you from school.

Whenever I have a discussion on guns on campus, The Appalachian School of Law Shooting is a great reason why students SHOULD be able to legally carry weapons.
 

mb1k

Yep. The clock says, "MAN TIME".
pilot
None
Whenever I have a discussion on guns on campus, The Appalachian School of Law Shooting is a great reason why students SHOULD be able to legally carry weapons.

I too remember that shooting, what's atrocious is the fact that the press never mentioned the way he was subdued by other students with handguns! Selective versus responsible reporting, the liberal media again....

Thanks for the education. I didn't know it myself until I read that.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
I just can't understand the seemingly arbitrary line that is drawn at the entrance to a college campus. Why is it okay for me to have a gun at the grocery store, but not on campus?.......

You're halfway there w/ regards to the 2nd Amendment.

In part: " ... the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed ..."

Campus?? It's just one part of the puzzle.

Riddle me this: why do I have to "disarm" myself every time I enter a federal establishment/reservation??? It's not like we kinda' associate the military and .... firearms ... is it??? :eek:

And, as a result of the unfathomable federal personal firearms policies, I will be "disarmed" whenever I return to the world outside the gate where most of the goblins reside. But -- outside the gate -- I'm 100% LEGAL/trained/licensed to carry .... but now I'm disarmed -- because of my recent visit to federal land.

Hypocrisies, mindlessness, stupidity .... and why, indeed?? And why don't WE the People DO SOMETHING about it??? The world wonders .... :sleep_125

This country -- and our culture -- is dying.
 

TBone

New Member
pilot
For the sake of discussion I'll bring up the liberal side of the argument, however unpopular. First of all, it's important to keep in mind that almost everyone shares the same goal - safety. At the end of the day we're on the same side. The presence of weapons on campus presents the opportunity for lethal force. Guns do not go along with the idea of a safe learning environment - unless you're teaching at IOC. How many times do college kids get drunk and act stupid? All the time. How many times are there puffed up chests and little fist fights? Often. Without weapons these do not escalate into anything too serious. What's the saying, "Locks only keep honest people out." Well, I appreciate that people who are going to shoot up the campus (and vigilantes) probably won't abide by the no guns on campus rule. However, if guns are banned on campus and someone is seen carrying a weapon, action can be taken, possibly before it's used (see weapons confiscated at any high school). It can be recognized that something is wrong. It's a good point that anyone, anywhere in town could be carrying a weapon and you wouldn't know. Armed police on campus would not stop someone from pulling a weapon from a bag and killing people before taking their own life (although I admit it may reduce response time) nor does it allow armed police in town from stopping murders. The bottom line is that we live in a place where we depend on the sanity and mutual respect of those living around us, if they decide to snap we cannot prevent them from doing damage. By banning weapons on campus the university attempts to establish a safe zone where weapons should not be needed. The presence of security, even unarmed, deters criminals. Arming them should be the last step in the escalation of force. And, if needed, armed police are always right outside the gate.

P.S. Please recycle, save the rainforests, etc., etc.
 

snake020

Contributor

You're halfway there w/ regards to the 2nd Amendment.

In part: " ... the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed ..."

Campus?? It's just one part of the puzzle.

Riddle me this: why do I have to "disarm" myself every time I enter a federal establishment/reservation??? It's not like we kinda' associate the military and .... firearms ... is it??? :eek:

And, as a result of the unfathomable federal personal firearms policies, I will be "disarmed" whenever I return to the world outside the gate where most of the goblins reside. But -- outside the gate -- I'm 100% LEGAL/trained/licensed to carry .... but now I'm disarmed -- because of my recent visit to federal land.

Hypocrisies, mindlessness, stupidity .... and why, indeed?? And why don't WE the People DO SOMETHING about it??? The world wonders .... :sleep_125

This country -- and our culture -- is dying.

Oh it gets better A4s... in '06 in Alaska, the supreme high commander or whatever the Army calls their ranking general up there put forth an order banning soldiers from carrying concealed on OR off base:

http://www.usarak.army.mil/alaskapost/ARChives2006/060310/Mar10Story2.asp

This in spite of AK law allowing anyone except felons and crazies to carry concealed.

Our profession is arms, officers are given "special trust and confidence" yet our personal firearms are treated like illegal drugs.
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
T-bone the commie said:
For the sake of discussion I'll bring up the liberal side of the argument, however unpopular. e are always right outside the gate.

P.S. Please recycle, save the rainforests, etc., etc.


We have found the enemy.. Cleared hot. :icon_smil

I did not know they let Commies into the USMC.
 

Herc_Dude

I believe nicotine + caffeine = protein
pilot
Contributor
By banning weapons on campus the university attempts to establish a safe zone where weapons should not be needed. The presence of security, even unarmed, deters criminals. Arming them should be the last step in the escalation of force. And, if needed, armed police are always right outside the gate.

P.S. Please recycle, save the rainforests, etc., etc.

Is arming them the last step in escalation or is the use of their "weapons" the last step? I don't really see being armed as a step in escalation.

As a card carrying member of "the choir" I don't understand how "you guys" don't get that the criminals don't care about the invisible lines that define Gun Free, Weapon Free, Tobacco Free, Drug Free, etc etc zones. While they seem to make people feel all warm and fuzzy, they are not going to stop someone who is determined to shoot up the lecture hall. However, I do know something that will ...
 

BACONATOR

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Is arming them the last step in escalation or is the use of their "weapons" the last step? I don't really see being armed as a step in escalation.

As a card carrying member of "the choir" I don't understand how "you guys" don't get that the criminals don't care about the invisible lines that define Gun Free, Weapon Free, Tobacco Free, Drug Free, etc etc zones. While they seem to make people feel all warm and fuzzy, they are not going to stop someone who is determined to shoot up the lecture hall. However, I do know something that will ...


This is exactly my point. It's like the old saying that "locks stop honest people." or something to that effect. A measly rule/law/prohibition isn't going to put a stop to criminals when it comes to gun/weapon restriction. Somehow drugs, guns, etc etc keep getting into our country illegally despite all the finger-shaking and law-making.

Criminals DON'T CARE about stupid rules, so the only thing they do is restrict those of us who could and would protect others when those criminals attempt a criminal act.

Complete nonesense and lack of logic on the side of the hippies.....
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
We were at the mall in Shreveport, LA when a group of gang-bangers walked by........Big-E finally cocked his head and grunted with a "That's right Asian Man ...you'd better be scared o' me.." look and walked away with what I can only describe as his "boyz"; bandanas, baggy pants (probably hiding illegal guns in a 'no-handgun' mall), sideways ball caps etc....

Really?! I'm sorry, but how do you know they were 'gang-bangers' much less carrying? Maybe it was a guy who got a thrill out of intimidating people like you. I just don't see how having a gun would have helped........
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
All right, I'll wade in.......

I have a couple of more pratical concerns about weapons on a college campus. As TBone already pointed out in his 'Devils Advocate' piece, I saw a lot of guys do some pretty stupid things while at college and adding guns to the mix could have made things much worse in several situations.

This in spite of AK law allowing anyone except felons and crazies to carry concealed.

This is my biggest problem. I am not familiar with every state's CCW laws but if many let eveyone without a record or who are not certified crazy (and that can be pretty hard to certify) carry, that would include a lot of morons/idiots/assholes and assorted others that I would not want carrying anythign more than a pencil. I can see more than a few ready room commandos that would arm themselves up and would be ready to pull their weapon out at any opportunity.

Even if they are not idiots I would also be concerned about the level of training that these people have gone through. As far as I know, the biggest requirement that states have for a CCW is a gun safety course, if that. But how many people make the investment in money and time to really learn how to conduct themsleves in a situation like a school shooting? I would argue it is very few. I know there are a few on the board who have made the investment and have the training, but for eveyone on this board who is a competent shooter I could probably point out 10 wannabes like the mall security idiot over at the gun forums (whether he was real or not, I have met some like him).

What happens when an untrained student startes trading fire with a shooter? How would that help if he can't even hit the guy? I know some of you might think it was the lesser of two evils, but the shooter has the advantage of surprise, knowledge and if history is a lesson, firepower. Surprise was on this guys side and he killed two cops, among others, before he went down: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/07/national/main3805672.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_3805672 What makes you think an untrained student would do any better?

Some of you failed to point out in the Appalachian shooting was that the two guys who supposedly stopped the shooter (it was not clear they played a factor) were both former cops.

Another simple but obvious concern, how would you distingush yourself from a shooter when the cops walk in ready for battle? You would probably look just like the shooter. Just a thought.......

One more thing, for those who want to openly carry a weapon, that is just a bit too much. You are not:

-A cop
-A cowboy
-Walker, Texas Ranger

So why the hell would you want to walk around like one? I think it could easily be used as an intimidation tactic by students or teachers, look at my reference to the idiots I mentioned above. I think it would do little to increase safety and would just tell a shooter who to target first when he opens fire. Sorry, but just because you have a tiny tool doesn't give you the right to openly carry.......
 

Herc_Dude

I believe nicotine + caffeine = protein
pilot
Contributor
Flash, I understand your concerns, but how does one get around that pesky 2nd amendment?

Lets compare this to the 1st. We have plenty of people who I think are not even remotely close to qualified to speak their opinion on the issues of the day, yet they get a national platform each and every night. Some, including myself, believe that this speech can be just as dangerous as an untrained person trying to defend themselves.

Why is this right defended so intensely (and rightly so) while other rights are not? Like I said, I completely know where you are coming from and share similar concerns, but I don't see how one could make laws constitutionally correct.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Flash, I understand your concerns, but how does one get around that pesky 2nd amendment?

Lets compare this to the 1st. We have plenty of people who I think are not even remotely close to qualified to speak their opinion on the issues of the day, yet they get a national platform each and every night. Some, including myself, believe that this speech can be just as dangerous as an untrained person trying to defend themselves.

Why is this right defended so intensely (and rightly so) while other rights are not? Like I said, I completely know where you are coming from and share similar concerns, but I don't see how one could make laws constitutionally correct.

Several of the rights protected by the First Amendment have restrictions on them in some form or another that have passed Constitutional muster.
 

feddoc

Really old guy
Contributor
All right, I'll wade in.......

One more thing, for those who want to openly carry a weapon, that is just a bit too much. You are not:

-A cop
-A cowboy
-Walker, Texas Ranger

So why the hell would you want to walk around like one? I think it could easily be used as an intimidation tactic by students or teachers, look at my reference to the idiots I mentioned above. I think it would do little to increase safety and would just tell a shooter who to target first when he opens fire. Sorry, but just because you have a tiny tool doesn't give you the right to openly carry.......


True enough, I am not either of those...but, I am a law abiding guy, who resides in a state which allows open carry. I rarely carry openly because of the target factor you mentioned.

And, um, sorry about your tiny tool. :)


"Even if they are not idiots I would also be concerned about the level of training that these people have gone through. As far as I know, the biggest requirement that states have for a CCW is a gun safety course, if that. "

Every state requires a bit more than a gun safety course, if that. Come out to Nevada, I will take you through my course for free.

"Another simple but obvious concern, how would you distingush yourself from a shooter when the cops walk in ready for battle? You would probably look just like the shooter. Just a thought....... "

I can't speak for all instructors, but I tell my guys if they are involved in a shooting and cops are at the scene....unload and safe your weapon (when feasible) and put your hands on your head while in a kneeling position (with the gun as far away as practical).


What happens when an untrained student startes trading fire with a shooter? (could be that he is trained...why assume the worst? could be that the shooter is stopped)How would that help if he can't even hit the guy? I know some of you might think it was the lesser of two evils, but the shooter has the advantage of surprise,(not if he is expecting his victims to act as sheep) knowledge and if history is a lesson, firepower.
 
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