Blackwater guys on the rooftop in Najaf

[Lawman]

What's the IA for a near ambush? Come on guys, just show why they should leave this stuff to the real professionals.

Some of these groups have more trigger time and training on average then the 19 and 20 year old Guardsmen that get sent over there. So "Proffesionals" is a bit of a misnomer.

Your comment reminds me of the coment a State Trooper made to me when he said "What do you need body armor for, your a security guard." I just asked him, "How many times have you been shot at in the last 3 months, Im nearly on my second hand."

 

[bigfish]

I agree with your first point, they do have more and often better quality. Who's paying for that training though? If the government can afford to pay a private company enough that they can train, equip and pay their militias maybe we could find some ways to filter that money into the military so we could better train and equip more troops that are held accountable to more than their stockholders.

As for your analogy with the State trooper, I don't think that really applies here.

 

[Lawman]

I agree with your first point, they do have more and often better quality. Who's paying for that training though? If the government can afford to pay a private company enough that they can train, equip and pay their militias maybe we could find some ways to filter that money into the military so we could better train and equip more troops that are held accountable to more than their stockholders.

As for your analogy with the State trooper, I don't think that really applies here.

My analogy was directed at the attitude of just because you arent with X your arent a proffesional. He thought since I wasnt with a sworn police department I must not be as proffesional as him, when I had a background he wasnt aware of. Same thing here, just because these guys dont wear US Army or Marines on thier uniforms doesnt mean that they dont exhibit the same level of proffesionalism or experiance as those who do.

And not all these groups are over there with military dollars. Granted the money for rebuilding contracts which is then funneled from the contracted company to the security groups does feed out of the same pot as the militarys spending cash. But what would you have these big companies do, rely soley on the protection afforded to them by a group they have no say over.... thats the same reason private security exists over here.

 

[bigfish]

I can see your point when talking about security for companies, I don't think the military has the means or the desire to fill all those "smaller" roles.

As for the guys' experience level. I have no doubt it is very good. As I said they often have more and better training. Security for a job site or housing area is one thing. I'm just saying they shouldn't have outright combat roles unless they are thrust into that situation. Which in all honesty is what the video Chuck linked to showed. So I guess I just dicredited my own position, which is fine.

I do hope the security guys over there are a whole hell of a lot better than the security agency I worked for. That outfit was totally disgusting. They did not have near the same mission as those guys over in Iraq though.

 

[KBayDog]

I do hope the security guys over there are a whole hell of a lot better than the security agency I worked for. That outfit was totally disgusting.

Snoogins.

 

[bigfish]

Sweet, that looks just like me. LeFlore was a baddass though. Most of the guys I worked with were either more like Silent Bob or a whole lot like Jay.

 

[DanMa1156]

Sorry, with the last couple of posts about crappy sec companies, I just couldn't help but think of Farva...

 

[Lawman]

Sorry, with the last couple of posts about crappy sec companies, I just couldn't help but think of Farva...

License and Registration.... Chicken F@cker! Ba-gock!

 

[DanMa1156]

Meow, liscense and registion, meow.

 

[thanksforthecas]

I don't know if I'm in this "group" of "elders", but I'll assume : YES.

I know a couple of former SEALs (personal friends --- one CDR and one MCPO) who do this work --- they did it way before 9/11. They are top-notch guys and I would (and do) trust them anywhere, anytime.

I support the mission of outfits "like" Blackwater because they do a job that our PC government and military will not do nor do they want to admit needs doing. Dirty things, underhanded things, things you can get done without fearing for your "career" or looking over your shoulder to see if the nearest JAG is watching you.

Things you need to do to win. Things our military used to do without all the handwringing or self-recrimination so in vogue in today's world. Our nation will never be taken down by beating the other guys at their own game. Only by appeasement and going for a "soft" solution in world conflict. The enemy attacks weakness, not strength.

Blackwaters ... Mercs .... Hessians .... former SEALs .... whatever you want to call 'em --- they do a job our government wants done BUT will not do itself.

Just my opinion .....

Thank you Shipmate.

 

[thanksforthecas]

I absolutely do not agree with your application of the dictionary meaning as you are "assuming" that is the primary motive. Maybe it is for some. How many do you know personally to make that assumption? I have a former SEAL working for me right now and he is on list to go because he wants to contribute and he cannot do so in uniform anymore. I have two other former special ops guys who feel the same way and will do it for a pay cut. Your principles (suggest you look that one up, too for proper useage/spelling) are important, but keep that open mind and remember your chain of command has put them into play. They are not in a foreign army. They are (for the most part) on your side. If it really bothers you, sing out to President and Congress then (beware: last guy who did that on "principle" was a marine buddy and he never got the squadron he deserved. He admits now that he let his emotions get the better of him....writing front page editorials did not endear himself to his chain of command). I do see your point and am only trying to show you some other perspectives on why so many contractors are being employed (to those who said use more uniformed types...3 answers to that endstrength, PERSTEMPO and OPSTEMPO)

BZ

 

[thanksforthecas]

The story goes that Blackwater was surrounded there in Najuf without any other military support besides a few Marines with a .50 cal sharpshooter(which you hear in the video). I read on militaryphotos.net that this was back in 2004. The description of the video never mentioned the number of "kills."

Two Marines both of whom received BSM's w/V and one PH.

The "sniper" , Troy H. is using a MK12 SPR, 5.56mm. Not 50.

Funny you mention kills, if I marked kills on my long gun Ide be put on Med Eval. But then again I get to grow a beard. The grass is always greener.

 

[thanksforthecas]

My question is what was posed before, what happens when American military intervention in Iraq/ Afghanistan ends? Are these companies restricted by law for working for foreign nations, or what?

No, but it must be approved by the SOS. Meaning "endorsed".

Flying Tigers comes to mind.

 

[thanksforthecas]

Does anybody else find the fact that these men are civilians a little, well, weird? I mean, I have no problem watching trained snipers fire on insurgents. Hell, I hope every round finds its mark. It's just the fact that they're (basically) government sponsored mercenaries that I find unsettling.

When I watch a clip of military men killing terrorists, I know that their actions are driven by pride in their country, a sense of duty, and over 200 years of service tradition. Soldiers/sailors/marines/airmen not civilians with guns; they're men and women who have given up their own rights in order to defend those of others. For all I know, the guys on this clip just enjoy being paid to shoot people.

I know that most (maybe all) of these men are ex-military, and I'm sure they all have some sense of patriotism. I just don't understand the concept of people pursuing a career in combat arms without the purpose of their work (i.e. the killing part) permanently linked to a greater good. Right now they're working side-by-side with the US forces, but that may not last forever. Where will these guys find their paycheck when they're no longer needed in Iraq? Anybody?

You're rhetoric is touching.

"for all I know, the guys on this clip just enjoy being paid to shoot people"

The only part that made sense "for all I know".

But since I happen to be one of the guys in the video, I must comment.

Several hours before that video was filmed my team repelled a complex attack by a force six times our strength. As the enemy brought in direct AAA fire onto our position two bad-ass F/A-18's smoked the ZSU and it gunners. I'm willing to bet those pilots had emotions similar to mine. Fear, anxiety, and whatever its called when you kick ass and say stupid things into the radio for couchpotatoes to critique a decade later.

 

[thanksforthecas]

Most of the guys I know that fly for Blackwater are retired. I would assume that most of the shooters are also.
Why do you think it is that Spec Ops E-7 and E-8 types are gettin 150,000 dollar bonuses? To keep them from going to the private contractor the D.O.D just hired. Go figure.
But I guess if I had twenty in and was asked to go fly for these guys and make about 25,000 ( not a typo ) a month. I'd would.
Back to the subject. These guys do a **** hot job over here. We see them everyday in the green zone.

If you know any of the Assmonkey's personally? We have mutual friends.

Yeah, if anyone can appreciate a good salary after mastering their skill in the military, Ide assume it would be you guys.

I think Ive seen a couple Aviators up front on a civ flight once in awhile. And its always a relief for me.