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Blackwater 61

PropAddict

Now with even more awesome!
pilot
Contributor
I don't think these guys tried to fuck up, they applied for a job and got hired. Blackwater could have not done so. I think some of the anger is misguided.

I think there's plenty of blame to go around.

But I think the pilots were the final check valve.

"No, sir, I don't feel comfortable taking this flight. I am jet-lagged, I have no clue where to go, what route to take, or what the local flying procedures are."

"Hey, man, this Star Wars canyon idea is retarded. Let's not do this."

"You don't know where we are or how to get where we're going? Let me break out this sectional real quick."

Basic pilot shit.

Were there many holes in the proverbial cheese? Yep. But when the pilot signs for the aircraft and straps into the seat: he takes ultimate responsibility for the flight. And just as he gets credit for any victories he scores, he needs to bear the blame when he CFIT's the aircraft.
 

NAVYBM2

Member
Contributor
Not a very sensitive or mature perspective there shipmate.

Brett
Wow, you guys really took this to heart huh? I am not trying to be mean or insensitive here, if it came across that way I am sorry.
I am just upset; people are being trusted with equipment and people's lives. A little responsibility and thought would be great!
 

NAVYBM2

Member
Contributor
What makes you think you could or would have done any better? Do you know what kind of aviator you're going to be? The focus shouldn't be on the pilots, but the company hiring. I could ask to try and land a Hornet in woxof conditions with my limited aviation experience, but the fault would lie with the Navy if they accepted my request.

I don't think these guys tried to fuck up, they applied for a job and got hired. Blackwater could have not done so. I think some of the anger is misguided.

No, I have no idea what kind of pilot I am going to be, but neither do you. So lets leave that for the future.
As far as the company is concerned, I truly dislike private contractors in war zones. This is not where they belong, they operate under limited restrictions and, as in this case, our uniformed service members have to pay for it.
 

Pepe

If it's stupid but works, it isn't stupid.
pilot
I think there's plenty of blame to go around.

But I think the pilots were the final check valve.

"No, sir, I don't feel comfortable taking this flight. I am jet-lagged, I have no clue where to go, what route to take, or what the local flying procedures are."

"Hey, man, this Star Wars canyon idea is retarded. Let's not do this."

"You don't know where we are or how to get where we're going? Let me break out this sectional real quick."

Basic pilot shit.

Were there many holes in the proverbial cheese? Yep. But when the pilot signs for the aircraft and straps into the seat: he takes ultimate responsibility for the flight. And just as he gets credit for any victories he scores, he needs to bear the blame when he CFIT's the aircraft.


Agreed. Yes Blackwater screwed the pooch by putting 2 new-to-the-area pilots together, but there is a certain level of expertise that is expected from a pilot with 5k+ hours. The blame for this crash rest squarely on the shoulders of the PIC. Good business practice dictates Blackwater take responsibility for their employee, but don't confuse that with who crashed that plane.
 

pourts

former Marine F/A-18 pilot & FAC, current MBA stud
pilot
The worst part was when the President of the company implied that a passenger changed the route.
 

BigIron

Remotely piloted
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
I don't think the pilots of this aircraft had malice. It was a completely jacked up situation. The holes of the cheese aligned and people lost their lives and a plane was destroyed (along with all of the personal devastation that comes with such an event).

It's the same crap that causes mishaps whether you are a civilian, contractor, or military. Complacent folks who get behind a situation and/or aircraft and end up in the side of a mountain or water. This particular event is news because it's attached to Blackwater.

I've read equally tragic or worse military mishaps. Military pilots are better trained than civilians (IMO), but our aircraft will fall out of the sky just the same.
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
I don't think the pilots of this aircraft had malice. It was a completely jacked up situation. The holes of the cheese aligned and people lost their lives and a plane was destroyed (along with all of the personal devastation that comes with such an event).

It's the same crap that causes mishaps whether you are a civilian, contractor, or military. Complacent folks who get behind a situation and/or aircraft and end up in the side of a mountain or water. This particular event is news because it's attached to Blackwater.

I've read equally tragic or worse military mishaps. Military pilots are better trained than civilians (IMO), but our aircraft will fall out of the sky just the same.

"Holes in the cheese" ?.......... my fricken arse! These guys bored their own holes big time, and they paid for it, big time.

Unfortunately, unlike a single-piloted-aircraft, these criminals – yes criminals – killed both themselves and their innocent passengers. And their company was no help, and perhaps – no, likely - set them up to fail.

Most everyone of my vintage - although our aircraft used to fall out of the sky, routinely - has never put even a minor, self-inflicted dent in their aircraft, much less killed passengers through their own stupidity and incompetence. And they have flown in the most horrendous conditions from heavy combat to incredible weather, pitching decks, hellish terrain, etc. Many, no most all of us who have over four decades of incident/accident free flight, even though most all have pushed or even broken the rules with calculation, remained among the living because of our uncommon training, our strict command, and our own personal integrity and professionalism. Indeed, many have incredible and well deserved chest candy for what they have accomplished, flying and surviving on or beyond the edge, and living to tell about it.

In summary, the Safety Board concludes:
• The flight crew flew a nonstandard route into a box canyon and did not take remedial action in a timely manner.
• The flight crew did not use supplemental oxygen as required by Federal regulations for the altitudes at which the flight was operating.
• The operator did not provide sufficient oversight of and guidance to it its flight crews.
• The operator did not ensure that operations in Afghanistan were conducted in compliance with Part 135 regulations.
• The operator’s dispatch procedures were inadequate in that they did not ensure that specific routes of flight were defined and flown.
• The operator did not adequately mitigate the limited communications capability at some remote sites.
• The operator’s flight-locating procedures were inadequate in that they did not consistently track flight arrivals at each remote location in a timely manner
• Once the airplane was identified as missing, the coordination of the search and rescue effort was flawed, and radar data of the airplane’s last known position were not provided to searchers in a timely manner.
• The FAA did not provide adequate oversight of the Part 135 operations in Afghanistan.
• The DoD did not provide adequate oversight of the contract carrier’s operations in Afghanistan that was consistent with the safety provisions of the DoD’s contract with Presidential Airways and the regulations in 32 CFR Part 861.
• If the passenger had received timely medical assistance, followed by appropriate surgical intervention, he most likely would have survived.
PROBABLE CAUSE
The captain’s inappropriate decision to fly a nonstandard route and his failure to maintain adequate terrain clearance, which resulted in the inflight collision with mountainous terrain. Factors were the operator’s failure to require its flight crews to file and to fly a defined route of flight, the operator’s failure to ensure that the flight crews adhered to company policies and FAA and DoD Federal safety regulations, and the lack of in-country oversight by the FAA and the DoD of the operator. Contributing to the death of one of the passengers was the operator’s lack of flight-locating procedures and its failure to adequately mitigate the limited communications capability at remote sites.


http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2006/AAB0607.htm

I have no sympathy for these derelict pilots whose incompetence killed others, nor their company for their slipshod if not legally negligent operations.

As I said....... Swiss cheese hole alignment, my fricken arse! :icon_rage
 

BigIron

Remotely piloted
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Right. I think we are saying the same thing. I've read the report too.

You don't seem to like the cheese analogy or cheese theory, but the pilots' actions and attached human factors are causal, so adding their jacked up thought processes and aircraft handling to an already bad situation (company policies, lack of oversight, etc) led to a mishap. The Navy currently teaches this model as a human factors in causation of mishaps. I didn't make it up.

My intent is not to defend the pilots or Presidential Airways. It's indefensible.

My post was to point out that complacency, overconfidence and other human factors type chicanery caused this mishap. There's nothing new in this mishap. That's the problem. All of the training and experience that should have been resources to these pilots to save the day were not used. That's the take-away for the budding aviator who reads here or the experienced aviator who feels they are indestructible.

I'm also not arguing about Navy aircrew training either. I also am wearing Naval Aviator wings and have flown for 10 years. We are not immune to mishaps like this.
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Right. I think we are saying the same thing. I've read the report too.

You don't seem to like the cheese analogy or cheese theory, but the pilots' actions and attached human factors are causal, so adding their jacked up thought processes and aircraft handling to an already bad situation (company policies, lack of oversight, etc) led to a mishap. The Navy currently teaches this model as a human factors in causation of mishaps. I didn't make it up.

My intent is not to defend the pilots or Presidential Airways. It's indefensible.

My post was to point out that complacency, overconfidence and other human factors type chicanery caused this mishap. There's nothing new in this mishap. That's the problem. All of the training and experience that should have been resources to these pilots to save the day were not used. That's the take-away for the budding aviator who reads here or the experienced aviator who feels they are indestructible.

I'm also not arguing about Navy aircrew training either. I also am wearing Naval Aviator wings and have flown for 10 years. We are not immune to mishaps like this.

OK. Fair enough. And I see you caught my drift, re. the "cheese analogy." :icon_wink

As we both know, in any mishap or accident, there are a number of factors that build, combine, and conspire to affect the outcome. I assume this is what today's Navy implies with its cheese theory... which is fine.

But my problem with it is that it seems some will use it, consciously or not, to mitigate guilt; to lessen the egregiousness of a stupid and negligent act. It is nice to say that the stars all aligned to help cause an accident, or all the holes in the cheese did. But that hardly explains why anyone would go well out of their way and just stupidly goon it! And take lives with them.

I'm no lawyer. But I do know that pilots in the course of their reasonable duty, even if they make unfortunate and dumb mistakes that do lead to fatalities, they are not held legally liable. However, any pilot who willingly and negligently exceeds the boundaries of safety, especially when innocent death is involved, they are indeed legally liable for felony criminal negligence. There is a big difference between the two, and I doubt the cheese analogy holds much water in a court of law for the latter. 'nuff said.
 
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