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Blackwater 61

Alpha_Echo_606

Does not play well with others!™
Contributor
Wow, I can't think of any excuse for this recklessness. Blackwater needs to face the consequences.
 

Birdog8585

Milk and Honey
pilot
Contributor
Just saw it. Interesting piece. Conspiracy theorists will likely run with this one unfortunately.
 

jtmedli

Well-Known Member
pilot
It's hard to imagine that they would even let two in-experienced pilots fly in unfamiliar airspace like that with no supervision. Pretty surprising lack of SA on that voice recording. It sounded like they had no clue where they were going.
 

slug

Member
It's hard to imagine that they would even let two in-experienced pilots fly in unfamiliar airspace like that with no supervision. Pretty surprising lack of SA on that voice recording. It sounded like they had no clue where they were going.

Surprised? This is the same company that said its mercs--er employees could not be prosecuted under Iraqi law or UCMJ when one of their guns murdered a man in the green zone, and when 5 of their guards gunned-down 17 iraqi civilians. Yet in this case they hide behind the military, saying they can't be sued, and islamic law which says companies can't be sued because of the actions of their employees. Shite. They would play the monopoly "get out of jail free" card if they thought it could help.

Yeah, they have some experienced soldiers and pilots, and some of their guys have done some heroic acts, even if their primary motivation was personal gain... but this company is a scourge which is at the same level as the mob. Spend a ton of blood money, get lawyer'd up and get away with murder.
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
It's hard to imagine that they would even let two in-experienced pilots fly in unfamiliar airspace like that with no supervision. Pretty surprising lack of SA on that voice recording. It sounded like they had no clue where they were going.

Not too hard to imagine, unfortunately.

They didn't have a clue, and it is not too surprising. They both had only a few days in country, and heaven knows what kind of experience or credentials they had when hired. They were not professional; indeed they were incredible fools.

Blackwater (aka, Xe) and Presidential Airlines are a for-profit company. They hire cheap unemployed pilots. Blackwater lacks the oversight, chain of command, command and control, and the personal dedication and training of the military.... or even the airlines. They recruit and overpay unemployed "cowboys" cheaply. And their employee's many mistakes like this have unnecessarily cost many difficulties for our military, not to mention lives.

I doubt most anyone on this forum regardless of experience and using only logic, if in charge, would have hired and let these two bozo pilots fly in mountainous terrain and hostile territory with important passengers onboard, without better screening, specific training, an experienced pilot onboard, and some dry training runs, etc. But that all costs money. $$$$$ More important than lives?
 

PropAddict

Now with even more awesome!
pilot
Contributor
$$$$$ More important than lives?

God, wasn't there a time where businessmen had ethics? When did we go to "money is all that matters" mentality?

Or was morality never there? Just a legend passed down by old guys who "remember" it used to be different?


As for Blackwa. . .er. . .Xe: they gambled big time. They lost. Time to pay up.
 

jtmedli

Well-Known Member
pilot
Not too hard to imagine, unfortunately.

They didn't have a clue, and it is not too surprising. They both had only a few days in country, and heaven knows what kind of experience or credentials they had when hired. They were not professional; indeed they were incredible fools.

Blackwater (aka, Xe) and Presidential Airlines are a for-profit company. They hire cheap unemployed pilots. Blackwater lacks the oversight, chain of command, command and control, and the personal dedication and training of the military.... or even the airlines. They recruit and overpay unemployed "cowboys" cheaply. And their employee's many mistakes like this have unnecessarily cost many difficulties for our military, not to mention lives.

I doubt most anyone on this forum regardless of experience and using only logic, if in charge, would have hired and let these two bozo pilots fly in mountainous terrain and hostile territory with important passengers onboard, without better screening, specific training, an experienced pilot onboard, and some dry training runs, etc. But that all costs money. $$$$$ More important than lives?

Well said. I guess common sense is a virtue the 'bozos', or their bosses for that matter, severely lacked and it cost these guys their lives.

I don't know who to feel more sorry for...the widows who have to continually suffer these fools, or the guys who potentially froze to death at 20 thousand feet because of their pilots (I use that term loosely here). All in all, another big waste to be attributed to saving the small price of prevention.
 

slug

Member
Eh, Mercenaries. Many valid reasons to go that route. Not being tied to Uncle Sam in a "chain of command, Geneva conventions" sort of way could have benefits the Gov. may actually like. Lets not imagine we live in Disney Land.

Right, let's wash our hands of responsibility and the rule of law/laws of warfare and get the job done by any means available. The ends justify the means.

Now lets try to imagine that we're still the good guys.
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Eh, Mercenaries. Many valid reasons to go that route. Not being tied to Uncle Sam in a "chain of command, Geneva conventions" sort of way could have benefits the Gov. may actually like. Lets not imagine we live in Disney Land.

FYI, I have no problem with "mercenaries." They have played an important role throughout history. Indeed, the Swiss Guard mercenaries have and continue to honorably protect the Pope in Rome since the 15th century.

Many years ago I seriously toyed with going to Afghanistan (and some other badass places) to fight the Soviets as a "contractor" aka mercenary. So please don't lecture me about any "Disney Land."

"Outside Contractors" certainly have their place. But there can be no place for those who have a long reckless, flawed, and fatal record, seemingly without any recourse! Our military deserves far better! Too many lives have been lost to Blackwater's recklessness.
 

ryan1234

Well-Known Member
It's hard to imagine that they would even let two in-experienced pilots fly in unfamiliar airspace like that with no supervision. Pretty surprising lack of SA on that voice recording. It sounded like they had no clue where they were going.

They were not inexperienced pilots. The PIC had around 5800hrs TT, many of which included CASA time in Alaska, which is quite a hostile environment for flying. He had 3 type ratings, and seaplane time as well. The SIC had almost 2300 hrs TT.

They each had 33 hrs in country - inexperience in country.

They made bad, fatal decisions collectively. Both military and civilians pilots have been victim to it. Pilot error, not company error in this particular incident.
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
They were not inexperienced pilots. The PIC had around 5800hrs TT, many of which included CASA time in Alaska, which is quite a hostile environment for flying. He had 3 type ratings, and seaplane time as well. The SIC had almost 2300 hrs TT.

They each had 33 hrs in country - inexperience in country.

They made bad, fatal decisions collectively. Both military and civilians pilots have been victim to it. Pilot error, not company error in this particular incident.

There is a huge difference between your "pilot error" and gross pilot negligence and incompetance! Especially leading to uneccessary fatalities!

And Alaska flying and 5800 TT doesn't carry any mail with me. I once flew with a former Alaska pilot with more than double that time. Wosrt pilot I ever flew with! And he's dead now... thankfully for his would have been, future passengers.

How do you know these details? And what is your connection with the company to so flatly exonerate them, in the face of massive contrary evidence?
 

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
Don't discount the fact that Ops scheduled two guys with little in-country experience - and both of whom had NEVER been to this field - seemingly without so much as a "hey, here's how you get to this airfield" brief. So there's lots of blame to go around.
 

exhelodrvr

Well-Known Member
pilot
Right, let's wash our hands of responsibility and the rule of law/laws of warfare and get the job done by any means available. The ends justify the means.

Now lets try to imagine that we're still the good guys.

"The ends justify the means."
It always has, to some degree.

How is hiring mercenaries different than giving aid to another country in exchange for their support?
 
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