Best and worst experiences with flight instructors

[Lawman]

Umm... I was speaking of 1) the non~ memory items and 2) rechecking the checklists after you do all the memory items.... verbatim or nothing? I have flown 4 fleet helos PLUS the -57 and I have not read anything like that (whatever the service calls the manual)~ Talk to your Army bubbas that fly for the Coast Guard and Navy now, and see how that would fly.

If its underline (IE everything save for 3 procedures in chapter 9) its verbatim knowledge. And its testable no-notice by any IP in your Unit. It has been that way since the first time I sat in the 67, it didnt get any different in the 64. Check list comes out after the immediate action steps which are part of the crew briefing. Even then the caveat of "dont let an underlined step kill us" is in effect. IE we dont have single eng capability so the bar for "when conditions permit" just became a whole lot different.

 

[HokiePilot]

In the carrier based helo world, we often stand Alert 15. We are in the ready room with gear on minus helmet. The aircraft is on the spot and has already been spun within 12 hours. All check have already been completed. It is not that difficult to run upstairs, jump in, and start up with in 15 minutes. Some of the time is spent waiting for the deck to stop turning or get good winds. The one time I have launched on it, we did not get the GPS up until a few minutes after taking off.

On a normal launch we will strap in around 30 minutes before scheduled launch. Much of that time though is an extra buffer in case the aircraft fails a check and requires maintenance or pulling out the A30, getting it spread and the bad aircraft folded and stuffed without busting the launch.

 

[KBayDog]

Oh fuket.. not worth the effort typing.

No, but I think your studs for tomorrow just shat themselves.

 

[Random Task]

I have not read anything like that (whatever the service calls the manual)~ Talk to your Army bubbas that fly for the Coast Guard and Navy now, and see how that would fly.

Analyze the situation and take proper action. Perform immediate action procedures without
delay; however, initially do only those steps required to manage the problem. When operating a
control, be prepared to immediately return the control to its former setting if an undesirable
response occurs

Straight out of my NATOPS, I think this statement is what Lawman is refering to

 

[jt71582]

No, but I think your studs for tomorrow just shat themselves.

They're both sharp ones, they'll have no problems.

 

[Lawman]

Analyze the situation and take proper action. Perform immediate action procedures without
delay; however, initially do only those steps required to manage the problem. When operating a
control, be prepared to immediately return the control to its former setting if an undesirable
response occurs

Straight out of my NATOPS, I think this statement is what Lawman is refering to

Very similar
Pg 9-1 of the Dash 10 for the AH-64D

Steps that must be performed immediately in an emergency situation are underlined. These steps must be performed without reference to the checklist. When situation permits, confirm steps accomplished and complete non-critical steps from the written checklist.

 

[Jim123]

If its underline (IE everything save for 3 procedures in chapter 9) its verbatim knowledge. And its testable no-notice by any IP in your Unit.

Memorize and testable emergency procedure underline/boldface/asterisk/critical memory items... to-may-to/to-mah-to. I think what you're stating here is pretty much universal across all the services and different aircraft communities.

I think there are some subtle differences across aviation in general (for example, whether "lower collective" and "reduce collective" mean exactly the same thing might depend on who you ask and on how tightly wound the community is), indications, pilot knowledge of amplifying notes/warnings/cautions/etc., and exactly how "familiar" you are with non-memory items for malfunctions that aren't essential for flight- which is part of what Kow was referring to. Time and situation permitting (and sometimes this is impossible period), it's ideal to double check everything with the checklist--memorize or not--either with your own flight crew or over the radio with someone else...

I'd bet most (but not all) communities have some discretion and "reasonable man" interpretation of how they do business... if your manual prohibits flight in icing but has a five-step memorization emergency procedure for flight in icing (Really NATOPS?!? Really?!?) then not too many guys will get too hung up on that one in the middle of summertime. On the other hand, engine failure? I don't think any aircraft community--rotary, f/w, single engine, multi, single seat, crew--allows much wiggle room on that one.

 

[Uncle Fester]

I just did ORM/CRM for the company a couple weeks ago, and as a case study we stepped through the USAir Hudson ditching. We bounced the cockpit voice recorder transcript off the Airbus engine failure in flight EP. One of the big points was that the dual-engine failure EP as written assumes it'd happen up at 20K'+, i.e., plenty of time to step through the procedure. It is not written for an extremely low-altitude flameout. Captain Sullenberger had enough hours in the plane and was familiar enough with the EP to skip ahead to the critical steps (e.g., APU light-off, mayday call), rather than go by the checklist.

 

[Pap]

I think everyone here agrees that EP procedures require you to pull out the checklist, if time and situation allow. A single seat guy, when faced with a compound or complicated emergency, will call out for help with the book reading, either from his wingman or if he is close enough to base, his SDO. The SDO will then essentially be to book reader and talk the pilot through the procedures.

As far as the normal startup procedures: make sure everything that needs to get turned on actually gets turned on and then take off. It’s really not that hard so let’s not make ground procedures a cosmic event. I can’t understand why we are wasting this much energy talking about checklist. Execute your procedures as per the commonly excepted procedures of your community. If your community enjoys running checklists, then great. If not, then don’t spend 20 minutes on deck reading stuff, when the rest of your division is waiting for you in marshal and wondering WTF is wrong with the new guy.

 

[phrogpilot73]

If not, then don’t spend 20 minutes on deck reading stuff, when the rest of your division is waiting for you in marshal and wondering WTF is wrong with the new guy.

For the record, we took off 15 minutes last night. That included lead troubleshooting an engine that wouldn't accelerate past 76% Ng, rolling to the back up, preflighting the back up, starting and spinning the backup, having flight E run a helmet out to Dash 2 (ICS problems with the copilot), and AIMS alarms on both Dash 2 and 3.

And we still read the checklist. It doesn't take as long as you guys make it out to.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

For the record, we took off 15 minutes last night. That included lead troubleshooting an engine that wouldn't accelerate past 76% Ng, rolling to the back up, preflighting the back up, starting and spinning the backup, having flight E run a helmet out to Dash 2 (ICS problems with the copilot), and AIMS alarms on both Dash 2 and 3.

And we still read the checklist. It doesn't take as long as you guys make it out to.

I don't know how long it takes to start a chopper. Perhaps things are done differently in different communities for a reason.

 

[wlawr005]

chopper?

 

[squorch2]

I think everyone here agrees that EP procedures require you to pull out the checklist, if time and situation allow. A single seat guy, when faced with a compound or complicated emergency, will call out for help with the book reading, either from his wingman or if he is close enough to base, his SDO. The SDO will then essentially be to book reader and talk the pilot through the procedures.

If you aren't already familiar, the VMFAT-101 SIR shows that this doesn't always happen with the rigor that one might expect...

 

[Lawman]

I don't know how long it takes to start a chopper. Perhaps things are done differently in different communities for a reason.

Dude even we dont call them "Choppers." The callsign is "Army Copter" and nobody uses it outside of the aircraft.

 

[KBayDog]

Dude even we dont call them "Choppers." The callsign is "Army Copter" and nobody uses it outside of the aircraft.

I call it a chopper. Because that's what it is.