Best and worst experiences with flight instructors

[Pags]

There are also things in our normal (not alert) checklist which have to be done in order, or at least have to be done a certain way, since one check may prevent you temporarily from doing another check (Chip IBIT interrupting master caution and Backup HYD pump for lockpin status comes to mind), so you can't just tackle "the closest alligator" with impunity... you have to do it in order, or at least have the forethought to know the implications of a certain check, what that limits you from doing and for how long, and be able to skip back and forth without missing anything.

Yeah, but you don't have to do these checks. If you forget to do the Chip IBIT test nothing bad happens, you just don't know if your chip detectors passed a continuity check. If you turn on the b/u pump and then do a lockpin check, you'll know it. And then you'll say "WTF?!?!" and realize that something is wrong. If you don't put the b/u pump in auto for the hyd leak check, you'll know. If you try and do the t/r servo check on apu vice main gens, you'll know.

While NATOPS doesn't recommend it, there's nothing stopping you from just going out, turning on the APU and then firing up the motors without do all the other checks. Good idea? Nope. Those checks are there for a reason. But the aircraft will start and fly without doing them.

 

[Gatordev]

Just curious: how many steps/how long are the jet checklists? I can't conceivable see memorizing EVERY step of EVERY checklist for the 60S. On a normal spin/set or start up for a flight, it takes on average 20 minutes at least to get completely started up and ready to pull chocks... if all systems are 4.0. Sometimes it can take upwards of 30..... hence the reason we spin/set for SAR/MEDEVAC alert.Either way, I don't think it's necessary, nor do I WANT to memorize 20 minutes of checklists.

I'm with Pilot_man on this one. I know the "common cockpit" probably has more fiddly PBS requirements with all the glass, so I can see how that might add a little complexity, but otherwise, it's more a matter of doing it a bunch. Right or wrong, I can start the helo from start to finish without a checklist if I'm sitting in the right seat, assuming it's not a tactical flight, and even then, you don't really do anything different on a tactical flight other than load stuff in the computer. I'd probably miss one or two things, like the transponder or the Tacan, but otherwise, all the important stuff that makes it go would be working, and it would take about 10 minutes if everything functions correctly. If I waited for the mission computer to come online and load, then maybe 15 minutes.

Sitting left seat (ie, the guy who reads the checklist), I have to reference the checklist more because I'm not actually doing the steps, which wouldn't apply to a single-seat guy, but even then, it's not rocket science.

Now, FCFs...yeah, different story.

And then there's the HUD, which I'm nowhere near profecient on. Programming that seems like it was designed by the same person who made NKO.

Really, REALLY old Block 0 60Bs vice Block I Core Bs had different switches in the cockpit (have forgotten exactly what, but there are some differences).

None of the switches that are different really matter. Really the only difference is the fuel panel, which generally is a -51 thing and not an issue.

 

[MasterBates]

I thought there was one that would cause it not to start (APU Air Source?) but it's been five years since I flew a B, and probably closer to 8 since I flew one of the really old ones.

 

[Gatordev]

That switch is on all "three" blocks, as well as the other series, as far as I know, but you're right, it can cause it not to start.

 

[usmarinemike]

Just curious: how many steps/how long are the jet checklists? I can't conceivable see memorizing EVERY step of EVERY checklist for the 60S. On a normal spin/set or start up for a flight, it takes on average 20 minutes at least to get completely started up and ready to pull chocks... if all systems are 4.0. Sometimes it can take upwards of 30..... hence the reason we spin/set for SAR/MEDEVAC alert.Either way, I don't think it's necessary, nor do I WANT to memorize 20 minutes of checklists.

Could I flip switches and get the thing started on my own? Sure. But there are so many little things I can miss which individually may not be a big deal or I'd catch after the fact... but add enough of them up, and I'm still panting from running out to the bird, thinking about 25 different things to get set up for and putting on my goggles for a 2am URGENT POI and there's the potential to put an aircraft in the sand/torch an engine/swap paint with dash 2/end up in the newspaper/whatever. For US (I won't presume to know anything about anyone else's community), it's much more effective to pull out our checklist and run through it (takes all of 2 seconds to flip to the alert launch checklist in the PCL) than to memorize it... and is virtually the same amount of time.

There are also things in our normal (not alert) checklist which have to be done in order, or at least have to be done a certain way, since one check may prevent you temporarily from doing another check (Chip IBIT interrupting master caution and Backup HYD pump for lockpin status comes to mind), so you can't just tackle "the closest alligator" with impunity... you have to do it in order, or at least have the forethought to know the implications of a certain check, what that limits you from doing and for how long, and be able to skip back and forth without missing anything.

I was going to stay out of this because I'm just a dude who's at the end of TRACOM flying a relatively simple airplane when compared to a fleet jet/helo. I'll throw another hat in for the jet community not C-R-R-ing-ing my way through the checklist. I can get the T-45 turning and ready to roll for a local flight in around 5 minutes. It was more like 25 minutes in the beginning. Most of it was being new, but part of it was kicking the habit of doing things one at a time and in an exact order like in the T-34. Nobody tells you that you can check the trim, run the O2 IBIT, and listen to ATIS/get clearance all at the same time (without saying anything), but once you figure out that you're both allowed to and have enough brain power to do so, life gets easier. It's truly all about establishing your flow through the cockpit as it's pretty close to the same every time with a difference here or there. I always HAVE the checklists open, and if something goes awry that trashes the normal routine, then I absolutely STOP and look through the WHOLE list.

Takeoff/Landing checks which are a whole bunch of items that will kill you if theyre not done right are placarded, sacred, and done in order.

With all of that said, being fast is the preferred way of doing things, but if you dick away the admin/ground ops portion of a flight, may God have mercy on your soul.

 

[Python]

I was going to stay out of this because I'm just a dude who's at the end of TRACOM flying a relatively simple airplane when compared to a fleet jet/helo. I'll throw another hat in for the jet community not C-R-R-ing-ing my way through the checklist. I can get the T-45 turning and ready to roll for a local flight in around 5 minutes. It was more like 25 minutes in the beginning. Most of it was being new, but part of it was kicking the habit of doing things one at a time and in an exact order like in the T-34. Nobody tells you that you can check the trim, run the O2 IBIT, and listen to ATIS/get clearance all at the same time (without saying anything), but once you figure out that you're both allowed to and have enough brain power to do so, life gets easier. It's truly all about establishing your flow through the cockpit as it's pretty close to the same every time with a difference here or there. I always HAVE the checklists open, and if something goes awry that trashes the normal routine, then I absolutely STOP and look through the WHOLE list.

Takeoff/Landing checks which are a whole bunch of items that will kill you if theyre not done right are placarded, sacred, and done in order.

With all of that said, being fast is the preferred way of doing things, but if you dick away the admin/ground ops portion of a flight, may God have mercy on your soul.

THIS

 

[scoolbubba]

Not sure how we went from best and worst experiences to a bunch of winged aviators getting real butt hurt over who uses checklists and who doesn't.

Most of our before start and take off checklists are actually accomplished on preflight, either hooked up to external power or with the APU running. O2, Lights, Trim, flight controls...all checked before we even pick up the checklist. I've gone from calling for the before start to the hold short for the close runway in under 10 minutes even hitting every single item on a checklist. Haven't taken off with the flaps in the wrong spot yet.

I'll keep doing it my way. Myeh.

 

[Lawman]

Just curious: how many steps/how long are the jet checklists? I can't conceivable see memorizing EVERY step of EVERY checklist for the 60S. On a normal spin/set or start up for a flight, it takes on average 20 minutes at least to get completely started up and ready to pull chocks... if all systems are 4.0. Sometimes it can take upwards of 30..... hence the reason we spin/set for SAR/MEDEVAC alert.Either way, I don't think it's necessary, nor do I WANT to memorize 20 minutes of checklists.

There are also things in our normal (not alert) checklist which have to be done in order, or at least have to be done a certain way, since one check may prevent you temporarily from doing another check (Chip IBIT interrupting master caution and Backup HYD pump for lockpin status comes to mind), so you can't just tackle "the closest alligator" with impunity... you have to do it in order, or at least have the forethought to know the implications of a certain check, what that limits you from doing and for how long, and be able to skip back and forth without missing anything.

Perhaps the difference in culture is that we also don't make routine "alert" launches or are pressed for gas like jets, as someone alluded to (wasting time in the chocks = fuel = training, or rushing to get to the CAT). If we are required to be in alert status, we spin and set the aircraft first, so that we can employ the alert launch checklist which seems analogous to the normal jet "flow" and check to get out of the chocks ASAP.

thoughts?

What are you playing with in that helicopter that it takes 20-30 minutes to run up. You guys ever think of splitting up duties or something and having a "we will come back and check all before engine starts," agreement? The standard in my community is standing outside the aircraft with gear in hand to REDCON1 and pulling pitch in 15 minutes. Ive seen it done in a little over 4. BUCS check and EGI check complete, engines started in the back. Up front weapons ops checks and TADS ops and boresights complete and we are slamming grids into the keypad while the computer does its thing and getting our SA set while the guy in back is taxing us out as soon as he has the power levers to fly. Check list is in the aircraft... on the dash... and Ill look at it after my sweep is done to confirm we did everything needed.

Look I sit where I cant see the other guys hands or switches, and in the front you spend the vast majority of the time with your head inside playing with screens and working the sensors while running the fight. You trust the guy that has the flight controls and they trust you to do something when they tell you. Hey man close out that fuel check, hey call us off with ops, hey give me a before landing/WAILR/Taxi check. Do I use the checklist, sure for stuff like Hot refuel or FARP ops in the dark when Im tired or when there is an abundance of time and I want to say it one more time to help memorize it like before takeoff in garrison. Do I need to turn to page ____ to be able to remember "Weapons, ASE, tailwheel locked, parkbrake," when we are short final into a confined area under NVS, No. The checklist as far as admin stuff like runup reads like it was written by somebody that doesnt understand there are two of us in the aircraft and sure as hell hasnt ever been one of those two people. We brief as a crew during the run up "Hey man Ive got Comms setup, and Ill start at the top left of the MPD and work my way around, you get TSD and Perf pages and start and weapons and work counterclockwise." If we broke out the check list out for every step and went in the order it has you doing them double tapping each other on operations nobody would meet that 15 minute standard and that is important to consider when you factor in that we are putting that time on the idea of a TIC call.

 

[Gatordev]

What are you playing with in that helicopter that it takes 20-30 minutes to run up. You guys ever think of splitting up duties or something and having a "we will come back and check all before engine starts," agreement? The standard in my community is standing outside the aircraft with gear in hand to REDCON1 and pulling pitch in 15 minutes. Ive seen it done in a little over 4. BUCS check and EGI check complete, engines started in the back. Up front weapons ops checks and TADS ops and boresights complete and we are slamming grids into the keypad while the computer does its thing and getting our SA set while the guy in back is taxing us out as soon as he has the power levers to fly. Check list is in the aircraft... on the dash... and Ill look at it after my sweep is done to confirm we did everything needed.

Right or wrong, I'd guess the difference is in how we're employed. We have two basic checklists within the pub. One is the regular checklist and the other is the Alert Launch checklist. There's certainly differences on how NAVAIR and Army Air do things and the Navy/MC tend to lean towards the max safety side of things (just watch random Youtube videos and notice the lack of cranials on Army dudes). It's just a different mission set and environment.

That all said, I remember when I was a first-tour JO and thought a 20 minute launch was hauling ass. Now if I'm not airborne in 15 minutes, it's usually because there's been a maintenance problem. A lot of that goes with having more experience in the airframe. For the last year, I've started a helo, on average, about 3-4 times a day. That goes a long way to making something faster than "normal."

 

[Lawman]

Wasnt trying to imply that the 15 minute launch was the only way we did things, just that its the standard you hold yourself too when it matters. We build a nice buffer of tons of time to be run up in just because of the tendency to jump to a backup rather than resolve MX issues. But even then in the end the only two things you have to do prior to engine starts per the dash 10 is an EGI alignment check and run a BUCs test (takes 2 min tops) after that you can start the engines and if your not the first flight of the day launch right there (you could still launch but your using that 5 hour hit check defer for the wrong reason). Having all the computers in the D model simplify the hell out of the runup though. A model guys are quick to remind you if your slow as the guy up front that they were loading all the points and targets for the entire mission (not just the quick ones coming over the radio) by hand along with laser codes and everything else (not to mention legacy FLIR and all the stupidity involved in making that bag of fail work prior to launch). Longbow, you hit master load, the card is specific to that aircraft (if your TACOPS guy does shit right) and all you have to do is verify it didnt wake up stupid (which happens more when we leave them off for a while than when we fly them a lot). FLIR is the same way, push a button, warn the ground guy, squirt laser, wait... done in 20 seconds what used to take minutes when somebody did an improper shutdown and threw all the codes or wiped out the boresight correctors. The thing that takes longest on runup to accomplish is really waiting for the FLIR to cool down so you can do your NVS/TADS ops checks. I was just trying to figure out what was so complex about a 60 that two guys couldnt get it knocked out quicker than 20 min with two of you having the same tasks to accomplish.

Far as the cranial thing (not sure if that was a stab at safety or a stab at our pilots). We dont wear headgear in improved sites, but out at FARPs etc, if your around the aircraft while blades are turning you have eye pro and a kevlar on. Caveat I have seen a guy do the kickin chicken after he took a header off an EFAB and hit the floor in the hanger, however the kid wasnt supposed to be on that gawd damn aircraft anyway and was jackassing around taking FB photos. So my sentiment on that goes along with my opinion of Reflective Belts are not a Force Field... dont be a retard.

 

[KBayDog]

Far as the cranial thing (not sure if that was a stab at safety or a stab at our pilots).

I'm sure that wasn't a stab at anyone, just an observation. On the Naval Aviation side of the house, we wear cranials/helmets pretty much any time we don't have our feet on the ground, whether land- or sea-based. It's not right or wrong - it's just how we do business.

I was impressed to see -47 mechs from the 160th wearing what looked like off-the-shelf skateboarding helmets when they were doing maintenance on their birds at WTI. The helmets looked both practical and comfortable.

 

[Gatordev]

Yeah, the cranials weren't a dig, just a different way of doing business. No doubt a large part of that is where we operate. When you're on a rolling/pitching deck and the top of your bird is covered in salt water and random slippery fluids (settle down), it's more of a concern.

I know your guys' TADS/targeting system is more complex than a -60, but it's interesting you have things to worry about when you shut it down. We just roll into our spot and flip the power off. There's a boresight that the maintainers do, but nothing is really lost by shutting it down "incorrectly." Entering the laser code is something that has to be done every time you start up, regardless. But again, I understand your system is much more complex than ours.

 

[Gatordev]

~By the way, if you skip thru your checklists on start, etc, do you skip thru the EP checklists as well? Just a wondering...

I didn't say I skipped through items, but... Yes, I do skip items on EPs. When step 6 is "Identify the malfunction," I tend to skip ahead. I know the Anti-ice is off. I know there's nothing on the cargo hook, so I tend to skip ahead to get to what's important. Superhawk moved "ID malfunction" from step 4 (the first three steps were simultaneous) to step 6. I guess that's progress.

 

[Python]

As per the thread title, I have two upper stage RI's (instrument flights) tomorrow, and if they don't use check lists or perform items before I read them off (a few tools try to show how smart they are), my name may make the Worst side of the original thread.

~By the way, if you skip thru your checklists on start, etc, do you skip thru the EP checklists as well? Just a wondering...

I don't think anybody claims to "skips thru (sic)" checklists on start, they just use a flow as opposed to reading it off. EP's of course are serious business and everybody has the procedures down cold, step-by-step. I am certain that's true in every community.

 

[Lawman]

~By the way, if you skip thru your checklists on start, etc, do you skip thru the EP checklists as well? Just a wondering...

Really? You dont have that little section in your operators manual (ours is chapter 9) talking about how certain emergency procedures require immediate, instinctive reaction by the pilot on the controls to maintain aircraft control. Thats why its verbatim or nothing with EP's and Limits. Oh sure Ill get the check list out for something that pops up on the EUFD to tell me "Hey Im Nose Gear Box 1 and Im in an impending Oil Bypass condition." I know the EP but yeah lets do it by the book just to be sure. But if Im flying with somebody that cant tell me without error that in case of a engine fire:

Emergency Engine Shutdown (affected engine) - when conditions permit
illuminated engine firebutton press - and ready light illuminates
fire discharge button(s) - press
land as soon as possible

You cant spit that out, you arent flying today and you probably just became RL3 again and get to reprogress with an IP and a target on your back. You know in a high hover condition with the loss of your tail rotor that aircraft is going to be doing about 4 revolutions per second (think about that rate for a minute). Good luck getting to the check list in the front of an apache when your pinned against the side of the canopy 6 seconds from impact.

Gator the big thing with improper shut down is you just dont know what the DTU is gonna do on wake up. Might be fine, might dump all the boresight correctors out of the computer which is specific to the aircraft and not the DTC you load from. Its in the non volatile memory but goofy stuff happens. If it dumps the boresight correctors though it usually dumps them all (pylons, gun, TADS/PNVS) and that takes a while to fat finger in. The actual shutdown isnt hard to do, its only 5 steps in the front and since nobody uses AMC its really only 5. Its more if you have somebody do something stupid like pull power levers back with the APU off and do a hard electrical shutdown on the system or forget to push master off prior to turning off the APU. Internal boresight on the TADS is only required if your going to use the laser for targeting. If your just gonna play with the thing in training, hey no need. But the laser has to be aligned with the DTV and the FLIR aligned to be in coincidence at range. The old TADS couldnt do math so you had to do an out front check with a target (usually about a km from the field where your parked) and you would check it to make sure they lined up after doing the internal. The MTADs knows the Pythagorean theorem so it can do the math and go "range says x so flir to laser angle should be y." Only takes me 30 seconds to do it and thats just letting it run its bit. Other than the 5 seconds I squeeze the laser trigger Im doing other stuff on my free MPD.