Best and worst experiences with flight instructors

[MasterBates]

No kidding. What the hell does that mean, MB?

It means, that if I found myself with my choice of punishment post FNAEB, of going through 40, 41 or 120 (E-2 Side), I'd pick to go through the HSM RAGs.

Operational/squadron not so much, but the RAG was SO FUCKING PAINFUL for no reason.

75nm Liberty Radius for Winged RPs. Cat-2 included, including weekends. While nobody filed for special lib to go to DC (under 200 miles) for the weekend, you could get hung for it.

Lots of "technique, not written anywhere" stuff that they would get pissed at you for "not knowing". Recurring issue with most E-2 RPs.

DD-175s filed for pattern hops. No canned, no flight sked is your flight plan, etc.

Walking to planes in full gear with nothing turning when it's 100 out. COD guys walk carrying their gear. In the same squadron.

That's for starters.

I was never so treated like a child as at VT-120. Not as a SNA, not as a RP at HSL-40, and sure as fuck never on my retread tour through VT-28/31/21.

There were good IPs like Deuce, DudeAmerica and Buddy Lee. Most of the rest? Fuck that noise. If my choices are RAG IP or non flying orders? I guess I'll finally get out of the cockpit. Skipper Basden tried to make it not suck, and it just reverted back when he left from people I have talked to.

Pain for pains sake, is stupid.

 

[Gatordev]

I get all that, but didn't understand what being a CAT 1 or CAT 2 had to do with it. The answer seems to be "nothing."

 

[MasterBates]

CAT-2 is the "fleet aviator from different aircraft" which is what I was.

Nominally should expect a bit more "big boy" treatment, or to be the same-ish as a Cat-1 (Newly winged noob) with maybe some consideration.

My CAT-2 was basically a CAT-1 with some flights waived.

And it was MORE painful than my HSL RAG experience, where I actually had to study tactics and stuff.

E-2 RAG for pilots is strictly "fly plane, land on boat, fleet squadron will teach all beyond this". If I had not been a fleet returnee, I would have no clue what an E-2 did. The "Tactics" the CAT-1s I tracked with did was basically the capes/lims brief we give to high school kids on a tour. Yet they made the good deal "fly plane, do nothing else" a relatively painful 9 months vice the fun 4 months it should be.

 

[Gatordev]

Yes, I'm familiar with what a CAT 2 is.

 

[MasterBates]

Then I really don't get what the Hell you are asking me, in relation to a comment bert made quoting me.

Sent via my HTC EVO 4G

 

[squorch2]

Sure. Is their mishap rate any higher because of this than helos or E-2s?

I can't say it's because of checklists, but all you have to do is look at the Class A reports to see that, yes, TACAIR's mishap rate is higher than everyone else's.

 

[bunk22]

Masterbates is right on about 120....I was a student back in 97-98 then was sent there as an FRS IP against my will in 02-04 and both were the worst experience of my time in the Navy. Every single other experience I've had in the Navy has honest to God been fantastic. I was a COD guy but as an IP, working for E-2 types was painful. Folks made things painful for no reason, no fucking reason at all. Never in flight school was I treated as poory as I was at 120 as a winged aviator, albeit a wannabe nugget. I remember hearing stories about the S-3 FRS, VS-41, and how fantastic it was and I was never so jealous of S-3 drivers.

 

[Pags]

I can't say it's because of checklists, but all you have to do is look at the Class A reports to see that, yes, TACAIR's mishap rate is higher than everyone else's.

I'd be curious to see the actual mishap rate across several years and how it compares to other communities. And not just a #, but a mishaps/100k hrs. To get a really good idea, you'd have to throw out all the mishaps that don't have checklist use as a causal factor. You'd also have to bring in every HAZREP to really get a good idea of "close calls". Would be an interesting stat from the safety center if they'd ever do something like that.

Another thought is the severity of potential issues. If you forget to do the landing checklist in the 60 or the 57 it's not like you're going to prang the bird like you would in a FW aircraft. So I'm sure there are plenty of "missed checklists" in 60 land that go unreported due to lack of consequences.

 

[Gatordev]

Then I really don't get what the Hell you are asking me, in relation to a comment bert made quoting me.

Sent via my HTC EVO 4G

You said you'd rather be a Cat 1 <insert community> than a Cat 2 <insert community>. I didn't understand that comment. Then you came back and talked about your specific experience with one particular community and how it compared to another experience with another community. The categories really had no bearing on what your point was (RAG community B sucked worse than RAG community A), which is what I was getting at. You answered my question.

 

[JD81]

I don't have a dog in this fight other than to piggyback on RAG experiences, but one of the Rhino RAG's was the absolute worst experience in my life and for my entire class as well. The best I was ever treated in my career was at Kingsville while an SNA, from the top all the way down they all treated SNA's in an excellent way.

 

[pourts]

I can't say it's because of checklists, but all you have to do is look at the Class A reports to see that, yes, TACAIR's mishap rate is higher than everyone else's.

I am pretty sure a large portion of those mishaps are Hypoxia and CFIT-- both of which aren't ameliorated through checklists. Maybe a few mid-airs also.

 

[AirPirate]

I just think that IPs like students who are like them and grades show it. Obviously a Cat 2 is a different animal than most IPs. I've known a very small minority of Cat 2's to come out of a RAG unscathed, while most come away from it with a negative experience. VFA and HSL were the worst hosts, but I don't know anything about VAW or VAQ. VF and VS seemed to be a little more humane but, years ago, VF to VFA could still be a punch in the junk for no good reason.

This is evidenced where a native IP in the community will look upon a student as he was once in that guy's shoes, and understand how the kid is a little late to join as dash 4. He looks at the Cat 2 and can't fathom why he's late to join. In actuality, the native IP is the douche in this case but he's the guy with the power to judge and so it goes. Then there's a big too-doo about how the Cat 2 is out of his element and LTJG schmuckateli marches onward with a positive attitude and a debrief learning point. Both the Cat 2 and the LTJG fix their mistake for the next ride, but the Cat 2 picks up a scar so to speak.

Yet, with the Cat 2 it's often less about expectations of performance. Instead it's about shoulder chips and pissing contests since we end up with guys who are roughly the same age bumping egos.

 

[Uncle Fester]

I can say I was treated a lot more like a grownup at the VTs than at 120, amazingly enough. What really blew my mind was how some instructors insisted on treating the S-3 transitions like CAT-1's. I mean, guys who had no problem talking to fellow winged LTs like they were idiot frat pledges, shit that would have got punches thrown in any other venue, and mostly because of the 'whaddya mean you don't know this!? EVERYONE in the Fleet does it this way!" attitude MB alluded to.

The E-2 world is really inbred. Like some flea-scratch town way up in the holler, you have to make an effort to leave for any length of time, and you're regarded with suspicion and derision if you do. Little is known, and less is cared, about how they do things in the big city. And when it comes to NATOPS, hillbilly snake-handlers got nothing on them for fundamentalism.

Personally, I think it'd be good for all of Navy Air to go walk a mile in the other bastard's moccasins as a normal part of a career. Go fly something else for a couple of years instead of being a shooter. That's supposed to be the whole point of a disassoc, right? Expand your professional horizons? Do 6 months at the FRS doing an abbreviated CAT+ syllabus, then 18 months in a fleet squadron. See how they do it, learn more about a different side of the house.

 

[Gatordev]

Personally, I think it'd be good for all of Navy Air to go walk a mile in the other bastard's moccasins as a normal part of a career. Go fly something else for a couple of years instead of being a shooter. That's supposed to be the whole point of a disassoc, right? Expand your professional horizons? Do 6 months at the FRS doing an abbreviated CAT+ syllabus, then 18 months in a fleet squadron. See how they do it, learn more about a different side of the house.

But then you wouldn't be well rounded nor have a broader perspective on your profession. Oh wait...

 

[bunk22]

I don't have a dog in this fight other than to piggyback on RAG experiences, but one of the Rhino RAG's was the absolute worst experience in my life and for my entire class as well. The best I was ever treated in my career was at Kingsville while an SNA, from the top all the way down they all treated SNA's in an excellent way.

Seems to me after being an IP in primar, 120 and now in Kingsville, I would agree that the studs are pretty well off.