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Attrite From OCS due to DNF on IST runs

zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
How? Unless they’re in a paid status we can’t PT or PRT most of the shippers to OCS.

Being that officer Officer recruiters are URL (not my community) I would make the argument to please send better URL types to recruiting.
Can’t give them a PFA? That’s dumb but fine, have the applicant go run a IPFA on their own and bring the results in and give them a CFL approved exercise plan they can refer to if it’s felt they need to improve on areas of physical fitness.

Even easier, making sure applicants understand that they need to drink water prior to physical activities to stay hydrated and make sure they understand if they stop during their assessment for any reason, they fail.

Shipping a kid to OCS who didn't know they needed to hydrate or stopping their run would result in a fail is a failure of leadership on NRCs part.
 

Swanee

Self aware since 2014
pilot
Contributor
It was around 2010-11 when CNRC stopped the PRT requirement, mainly because people have been getting injured or worse... died from being PT'd by recruiters.
Wait- people died? What were they doing to PT them and who were these candidates/where did the come from? Mom's couch?

"Hey man, bring some PT gear and running shoes at our next meeting; we're going to go for a run, and do some pullups (or pushups) and crunches."
At mile .5 when they can't make it, you slow down, let them fall out, whatever, and then tell them they need to keep working on it before you'll send them off. It's not rocket science.

I mean, we're the military. Physical fitness to a certain level is (rightfully so) expected...
 

NavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
It was around 2010-11 when CNRC stopped the PRT requirement, mainly because people have been getting injured or worse... died from being PT'd by recruiters.

We've suggested to CNRC in order to improve the shipping process to force recruiters to administer PRTs for selectees 45 days from their OCS ship date. If they fail, they have a second chance at 30 days. If they fail that one, their OCS ship date is rolled back one more time. If they fail the third PRT, they're done/attrited.

We all know the military is growing and OCS accessions are going up, way up. The risk behind the PRT is that if someone rolls out, it forces CNRC to have to find someone willing to take that OCS spot.
I remember that, from what I understand the kid was actually in good shape, participated in sports and such, not some fat kid that just sat in the house all day. He just dropped and the recruiters did CPR but died on the spot, it was a quick notification the next day to stop all PRT's for those not in a pay status.
 

RecruitingGuru

Making Recruiting Great Again
Can’t give them a PFA? That’s dumb but fine, have the applicant go run a IPFA on their own and bring the results in and give them a CFL approved exercise plan they can refer to if it’s felt they need to improve on areas of physical fitness.

Even easier, making sure applicants understand that they need to drink water prior to physical activities to stay hydrated and make sure they understand if they stop during their assessment for any reason, they fail.

Shipping a kid to OCS who didn't know they needed to hydrate or stopping their run would result in a fail is a failure of leadership on NRCs part.
22843
 

Dontcallmegump

Well-Known Member
From what I heard that is about accurate
I've heard this on and off over the last few years and the statistic always hovers around 75% but is rarely ever expanded on or qualified in any way. Its been explained to me, and that seems to be backed up with a quick google search that the three quarters of unqualified young people wouldn't all be completely unable to get in. The top 4 problems being medical, physical fitness, education and criminality. All of those factors contain situations that can be resolved on the part of the applicant (getting in shape, completing education) or excused with a waiver if appropriate.

By no means are we in a situation where 75% of young Americans could not ever serve, rather as they are and by an interpretation of the standards they are not presently qualified. This is a failure of preparation, not an impossible situation.
 

Fallonflyr

Well-Known Member
pilot
He also told me the Navy has spent millions of dollars on a hi tec running track at Geat Lakes because of the high number of stress fractures. Seems that the current generation has underdeveloped bone structure from sitting on their ass all day and being driven by Mom and Dad vice walking or riding their bikes everywhere like past generations of youth.

It is stunning that anyone would show up to OCS unable to run 1.5 miles. Who the fuck do you expect to lead if you can’t even meet such a low standard?
 

Dontcallmegump

Well-Known Member
He also told me the Navy has spent millions of dollars on a hi tec running track at Geat Lakes because of the high number of stress fractures. Seems that the current generation has underdeveloped bone structure from sitting on their ass all day and being driven by Mom and Dad vice walking or riding their bikes everywhere like past generations of youth.

It is stunning that anyone would show up to OCS unable to run 1.5 miles. Who the fuck do you expect to lead if you can’t even meet such a low standard?
Now that, on its face, is true. Apathy leads to atrophy, leading to attrition. I cannot speak on the mindset of other peoples expectations of OCS and what leading people will be like, cognitive dissonance ^(1) isn't universally experienced I suppose.

My biggest takeaway was that the program was much more physically demanding then I would have ever expected, even after reviewing all the materials I could get my hands on in the years before I went. If applicants could truly internalize what it would require and what it feels like to go through OCS before arriving to Newport, I believe many fewer would take the plunge. That gives the recruiting process an incentive to downplay the difficulties ahead of any recruit or candidate. Looking back on my recruitment experience then OCS, I would say that 100% there were times my recruiter avoided details, or painted a more rosy picture of what it would be like to avoid discouraging me even though I think it was a bit more prepared then most.

Pair a recruiter motivated to shade the truth with a candidate who believes what they want to believe and come the morning of the IST and a DNF will eventually happen.

(1) Special thanks to @Treetop Flyer (2019)
 
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Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
Now that, on its face, is true. Apathy leads to atrophy, leading to attrition. I cannot speak on the mindset of other peoples expectations of OCS and what leading people will be like, cognitive dissidence isn't universally experienced I suppose.

My biggest takeaway was that the program was much more physically demanding then I would have ever expected, even after reviewing all the materials I could get my hands on in the years before I went. If applicants could truly internalize what it would require and what it feels like to go through OCS before arriving to Newport, I believe many fewer would take the plunge. That gives the recruiting process an incentive to downplay the difficulties ahead of any recruit or candidate. Looking back on my recruitment experience then OCS, I would say that 100% there were times my recruiter avoided details, or painted a more rosy picture of what it would be like to avoid discouraging me even though I think it was a bit more prepared then most.

Pair a recruiter motivated to shade the truth with a candidate who believes what they want to believe and come the morning of the IST and a DNF will eventually happen.
22844
Solid band name, my dude
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
My biggest takeaway was that the program was much more physically demanding then I would have ever expected,
And that shows just how bad it is. Today’s Navy OCS is nothing physically compared to the past, especially AOCS.

In the AOCS days, the recruiters made damn sure that anyone applying and going knew that they better be in top condition. And they gave PT tests to everyone before they signed their contract (at least both my recruiter and my brother’s did). Day 1 of AOCS was a PT test to include pull-ups. The AOCS PT test was a lot harder than the rest of the Navy’s. Plus there were the obstacle and cross country courses you had to complete within a certain time. AOCS had more stringent PT requirements than Aviation Indoctrination that the Academy and ROTC guys dis and the Aircrew Candidate School, but they too had to do pull-ups and the obstacle and cross country courses.

The Marine DIs used to like AOCS better than Marine OCS. At Quantico they had rules such as only so many push-ups the first week, so much remedial PT time , etc. At AOCS they had no rules and no limits. Quantico had rules on cussing, etc. the DIs had to follow. At AOCS they were free to use their imaginations....

I said earlier that AOCS DIs would get in trouble if they did today what they did then. I take that back - they would be in jail. It was also right out in the open for the whole world to view. The Aircrew Candidate school was across the street and they were absolutely floored by the antics they say on the other side of the road. Officers go through AI to include Marines straight from TBS were amazed. Dependents would come to watch. Families got to see it all during outposting which was held every week right after the commissioning parade.

Someone talked about fire ants earlier. We would be PTed in the Rose Garden/Pit/Black Hole (name varied wiith the time or DI) which was the condensation run off from the whole block of buildings causing a muddy, sandy mess that got into every crack and crevice causing much rash and discomfort. There were fire ant piles everywhere. Sure you could stop and move away from the ants but that led to much, much more screaming and PT. It just wasn’t worth it so you sucked it up and got bit. It also didn’t matter if you were in khakis or PT gear, if a DI wanted to PT you in the mud he did it. If you had an event immediately after, you went muddy. Of course that lead to the next DI who came along PTing you for being a slob.

The sad part is that today it is seen as hazing, harassment, brutality, etc. “How dare they treat candidates like that?! They should be in jail the monsters!” Yet almost everyone who commissioned through AOCS believes it was it shaped them and prepared them for anything the military or life could throw at them. They wouldn’t change it if they could.
 
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HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
I don't disagree with you @HAL Pilot , just wanted to throw out the article below for some humor:

https://www.duffelblog.com/2014/11/military-basic-training-boot-camp/
Duffle Blog is always good.

Things like stress cards did not exist nor would anyone ever had thought of such a thing. The whole purpose o was to put you under the most stress possible to see if you would quit.

The DIs lived and breathed to hear “DOR” or “I quit”. If someone barely began to speak those magic words, they were gone at light speed with no chance of staying or coming back.
 

Dontcallmegump

Well-Known Member
And that shows just how bad it is. Today’s Navy OCS is nothing physically compared to the past, especially AOCS.

In the AOCS days, the recruiters made damn sure that anyone applying and going knew that they better be in top condition. And they gave PR test to everyone before they signed their contract (at least both my recruiter and my brother’s did). Day 1 of AOCS was a PT test to include pull-ups. The AOCS PT test was a lot harder than the rest of the Navy’s. Plus there were the obstacle and cross country courses you had to complete within a certain time. AOCS had more stringent PT requirements than Aviation Indoctrination that the Academy and ROTC guys had, but they too had to do pull-ups and the obstacle and cross country courses.

The Marine DIs used to like AOCS better than Marine OCS. At Quantico that had rules such as only so many push-ups the first week, so much time, etc. At AOCS they had no rules and no limits. Quantico had rules on cussing, etc. the DIs had to follow. At AOCS they were free to use their imaginations....

I said earlier that AOC DIs would get in trouble if they did today what they did then. I take that back - they would be in jail. It was also right out in the open for the whole world to view. The Aircrew Candidate school was across the street and they were absolutely floored by the antics they say on the other side of the road. Officers go through AI to include Marines straight from TBS were amazed. Dependents would come to watch. Families got to see it all during outposting which was held every week right after the commissioning parade.

The sad part is that today it is seen as hazing, harassment, brutality, etc. “How dare they treat candidates like that?! They should be in jail the monsters!” Yet almost everyone who commissioned through AOCS believes it was it shaped them and prepared them for anything the military or life could throw at them. They wouldn’t change it if they could.
Ill grant you it was certainly harsher in the past and to some degree more physically demanding, but it isn't like the hardest thing you'll do in Newport these days are a PFA to the minimum passing standard (not withstanding the "sharking" practices that go on) . In fact that's barely a taste of what is to come in the next 11 weeks.

Chiefs and DI's have rules on them, because everyone should have oversight. They aren't allowed to use profanity with candidates, do they? Of course they do, hell even some of the officers up to and including the Director of OCS swore at and in the presence of candidates while I was there. About the only form of verbal abuse not common is anything that would constitute discrimination against a protected class, and even that limit was tested right up to the edge by some of the more daring RDC's or DI's.

Obstacle courses? Now they just don't have anything tall for us to fall off of, but you bet we spend our fair share of time in/out of the sand crawling, running, jumping, doing exercises and other monkey games and most fun of all carrying heavy things for the fun of it to make up for lost climbing. As for a time limit? Fast cruise has a cutoff, don't make it to the door before it closes? Too bad, try again in three weeks.

As for harassment and brutality, I've seen candidates including myself pushed up to the point where they cant move by a DI who wants to make a even a minuscule point by bringing them to the breaking limit and stopping only when they're satisfied they wont reel in another DOR and there's nothing left in the muscles left for the offender to give. There's both time and occurrence limits to beat sessions but those rules were bent on a non infrequent basis. One candidate with a troubled training history was called out daily at REG PT in front of everyone by one RDC to DOR because she would never make it though and it was pointless that she remain because it only served to waste everyone time.

Hell, on graduation morning I was told by my DI and class O that my family was ashamed of me, and that I would be a garbage officer while being beat for about an hour to the point of vomiting in front of my entire class and any other candidates or staff to see. My infraction? Not having shaved the day earlier, while possessing a current and valid no shave chit. When I brought that to light I was now "insubordinate" and "extremely arrogant and disrespectful". Hours later I was told by the DI "I didn't mean anything by it Sir".

Public spectacle? Just about the only place someone couldn't watch the training going on would be inside Nimitz hall. Beyond those walls, anyone with base access could watch whatever was going on pretty much daily.

OCS in its current form isn't some worthless, new age PC cupcake camp compared to the AOCS of old. Easier to some degree I'm sure and ill be the first to blame some members of my approximate generation of being soft, but when leaving upon commissioning the old man said what he saw there during the day or two leading up to graduation didn't hold a candle to his boot camp experience circa 1986 and was more brutal than anything he had seen in his following 30 years of service.

Stress cards? Occasionally heard of it, never seen one.

Then again, some people throw themselves into it and maximize the experience to make themselves stronger and and others shrink from any form of attention are deaf to the process just trying to make it through under the radar. Personally, I'm glad it struck me the way it did, it's unfairness and disregard for contempt for even the slightest comfort taught me lessons that I never would have imagined up to that point and can only better equip me on the path ahead.
 
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