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Article about Marine Motorcycle fatalities...

Bolter

Member
pilot
Safety guy was saying if I got injured off base on this new policy without the training I would get a line of duty determination not in my favor.

True statement. Wreck your bike out in town without your proper PPE or all of the required safety classes and you are OUTSIDE the line of duty. AKA, have fun paying for your healthcare. I know I might look like a douche riding around with my orange vest and my Wiley X's on a Saturday in New Bern, but I'll be damned if I get hit with outside the line of duty. Plus, that whole officers set the example thing stands whether you are on libo or not.
 

Brunes

Well-Known Member
pilot
No. You don't have to do shit unless you ride on base. Maybe some commands have their own SOP for their personnel, but in general, no.

Read the references before you make unequivocated statements- This link goes to a message dated 04 so idk if it's technically in effect any longer- but somehow I doubt the Navy backed off their policies:
http://www.sportbikes.ws/printthread.php?t=36117

Here is the key paragraph:
A. MOTORCYCLE OPERATORS MUST COMPLETE A MOTORCYCLE SAFETY
TRAINING COURSE APPROVED BY COMNAVSAFECEN FOR NAVY PERSONNEL OR
BY CMC(SD) FOR MARINE CORPS PERSONNEL AND MUST DO SO EVEN IF
THEY DO NOT PLAN TO REGISTER OR RIDE THEIR MOTORCYCLE ON A DON
INSTALLATION. DON COMPONENT COMMANDERS SHALL ESTABLISH POLICY
CLEARLY DEFINING A SPECIFIC TIMEFRAME WITHIN WHICH PERSONNEL
MUST COMPLETE APPROVED SAFETY TRAINING.

Read the rest of the message- It's in your best interest to know what the policies are if you are going to ride. Another awesome site to take a peek at is:
http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/ashore/motorvehicle/motorcycle/

In order to not have issues down the road it's important that everyone who enjoys this to know the policies to follow them and share that wisdow with others.
 

mmx1

Woof!
pilot
Contributor
I wasn't aware if Otto was referring to BDCP candidates (of which I know jack shit), or active duty in general.

Active duty are bound by the rules 24/7.
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
This TRA nanny-state BS is about the only thing that ever pisses me off about being in the Navy on a constant basis. The upsides are currently outweighing that, but for a military that seems to thrive on and desire type A personalities, they are eventually going to chase guys away from serving. Or push those that are in, out.

Right now there are only 2 things that I can see that will push me to say "fvck it" and punch.

One is the TRA mentality, and all the BS that accompanies it, be it paperwork, or having to sit thru a brief on how to trick or treat with your kids(I am NOT kidding) or something equally stupid.

The other is becoming stupidly wealthy, and desiring to cut the ex out of my retirement by getting out at 15+ years.
 

Brunes

Well-Known Member
pilot
I wasn't aware if Otto was referring to BDCP candidates (of which I know jack shit), or active duty in general.

Active duty are bound by the rules 24/7.


Fair enuf...I guess I didn't really compute that either.
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
I'll be interested to see how the Commandant's message that came out a while back, something with a snippet of "this will be used in a line of duty determination." Compares with the JAGMAN that states that merely violating an order does not make you not in the line of duty/due to your own misconduct. When I did the LOD investigation for a motorcycle, the CO tried to tell me that I was wrong and that he should have been non in the line of duty - since he violated the order about PPE. The Lawyers told me I was right, and that just violating an order is not enough.
 

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
You guys are being too harsh. You all know the way it goes. The President/SECDEF/SECNAV sees these statistics. They ask the Commandant what he's doing about the problem. The Commandant asks his staff what they're doing about it. Somewhere down the line, a field grade officer comes up with another policy/restriction, and it gets sent back up with beaming approval, because it means that we're now "doing" something about the problem. Nobody enjoys writing this crap any more than we enjoy being burdened by it. Same with drunk driving. Same with suicide awareness. Same with countless other programs that are now in effect as a purely reactive measure.
How can one be proactive about it? Reducing the reasons that a Marine would want to take his bike at 90mph, or drive drunk, or attempt suicide. Make his job challenging, but in a good way. Make it suck less by reducing the bullshit he must endure. And yes, making sure that the NCOs, the trusted older brother to the junior enlisted Marine, encourages them to do the right thing.

We could start by having an officer with a set of balls tell his boss...."Sir, we are at the frictional level here. There is nothing more that we can do to realistically lower this rate. We can shout at the rain all we want to, but this rate is NEVER going to decline appreciably."*

OR.......we could actually DO something drastic. For instance, we could BAN MOTORCYCLES OF ANY KIND, REGARDLESS OF TIME/DATE/PLACE DUTY STATUS.

This, of course, is of dubious legality and would create an uprising bordering on mutiny on a grand scale........but it would probably lower the rate some. It would NOT make it zero.

We would have to use the LOD/misconduct deal here to enforce it. Really. Seriously.


phrogpilot73 said:
I'll be interested to see how the Commandant's message that came out a while back, something with a snippet of "this will be used in a line of duty determination." Compares with the JAGMAN that states that merely violating an order does not make you not in the line of duty/due to your own misconduct. When I did the LOD investigation for a motorcycle, the CO tried to tell me that I was wrong and that he should have been non in the line of duty - since he violated the order about PPE. The Lawyers told me I was right, and that just violating an order is not enough.

I just graduated from the Senior Officers Legal Course (please.....hold your applause). Let me be the first to tell you that they will never, EVER, seriously find significant numbers of folks out of the line of duty or due to their own misconduct for stuff like this. NEVER.

It "hurts the families", and even then, as you pointed out, the JAGMAN makes it nearly inpossible to find in that regard. Even if you did, it would be reversed by higher authority anyway. Believe it.

That whole threat is just that; a threat. An empty one at that. Lots of RPM and no traction.

No General wants to tell the wife of a Cpl. with 3 kids that his medical care won't be covered as he lies in a coma. It looks bad.

Maybe if we actually did that, a few of the other knuckleheads would learn by example.

*This is a very painful and hazardous plan of action. The face sanding you will endure will last awhile and will reflect on you in your fitreps. Trust me....I "know a guy who did this".
 

Zissou

Banned
First, I'm always sorry to hear of the loss of young people same as anyone else here. But when I read this article I thought: AWESOME! WE HAVE COME A LONG WAY FROM ANBAR 04-07.

Tragic as a liberty call death is, I'm VERY happy to see the reversal of our combat losses.
 

7562Driver

Member
pilot
"Tragic as a liberty call death is, I'm VERY happy to see the reversal of our combat losses."

Exactly. Instead of looking at this as "you bad motorcycle riders," why can't we look at this as how far we've come in our combat operations.
 

Harrier Dude

Living the dream

ECHELON II COMMANDERS WILL CONSOLIDATE THE MOTORCYCLE DEMOGRAPHIC REPORTS FOR ALL SUBORDINATE COMMANDS AND PROVIDE A WRITTEN OR ELECTRONIC REPORT OF THAT INFORMATION TO CNO N1, CNIC (N35) AND COMNAVSAFECEN (CODE 42) BY 14 NOVEMBER 08.

Thank God! Finally somebody is doing something productive in this quest for safety utopia!!

This will definitley have a huge impact.
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
Yah, now I have to talk to all the SNAs who ride, and have them talk to the Safety Officer. Who I have given my opinion about this to already.
 
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