Another helo vs the world thread (moved from helmets)

[HueyCobra8151]

If the Navy wants to fire unguided rockets off helos without the NCEA requirements that come with it, they should invest in something similar to the LAADS probe which gives CCIP/CCRP capability. Pretty accurate.

How are they going to employ the M197?

 

[Pags]

As with the last conversation about M197 and ASuW, this conversation is straying close to beadwindow territory. Lots of non-specific discussions about capabilities, lack of capabilities, training, and the lack thereof are probably not best discussed on a public internet forum.

 

[Gatordev]

To your point: I'm not sure what you mean by silly... Now imagine a guy shooting FFW (training or in anger) who has about 10 other jobs we have told him to be proficient at, and now you have a solid argument to providing whatever he wants to improve his SA.

Will reply to your PM, but what I find silly is all the new and fancy weapons when there's so many other things we need to fix. Especially when it's not a normal occurrence to use what we already have, despite what gets sold to crews during the various training curricula (HARP, FRS, LVL checks, etc).

Honest question: other than AUF, which I'd argue isn't an organic means of putting rounds down range, has HSC (not HS or HC) been called to actually shoot anything? I'd guess yes in the HOA, but I'm also guessing it's about as rare as HSL/M doing it.

 

[helolumpy]

Honest question: other than AUF, which I'd argue isn't an organic means of putting rounds down range, has HSC (not HS or HC) been called to actually shoot anything? I'd guess yes in the HOA, but I'm also guessing it's about as rare as HSL/M doing it.

Other than a Mk-58 floating in then water near a ship.... No.

The Navy can spend all the money it wants on gucci helo gear, the fact of the matter is, with the exception of 84 and 85, Navy helo units being stationed feet dry is not going to happen very often.
Prior to 9/11 the best Navy helos could get was a Det into Kuwait for a week or so to rebase Terf quals.
The Navy did not want us to be away from our ships for longer than a week and the land components felt that if we were only there for a week or so, they why bother tasking us with any missions/alerts.

For the opening stages of OIF, HS-7 worked a back-door deal with 4ID to get them to request us for MedEvac support when they went into Northern Iraq through Turkey (until, Turkey said No of course). C6F threw a hissy fit about Navy helos supporting Army units ashore and C6F losing control of Navy assets.
That was a legitimate need (due to PaveHawk materiel status for ONW) for the beginning of a war. If the Navy was pushing back on that, you think they are going to buy off on sending aircraft ashore for prolonged periods of time under JFACC/JFLCC control for something less than the invasion of Iraq?

I realize the Air Ambulance got a lot of HS/HSC folks in country for a while, but with the draw down coming in Afghanistan, the odds of the Navy land-basing units for any significant period is incredibly low. If there is a need for CAS aircraft that means there's boots on the ground. That means the Army and Marines will have their own CAS which is under their direct control.
The best the Navy can do it provide a couple of birds under JFACC or JFMCC control.
Sure, we can stand CSAR alerts, but you don't need forward firing ordnance for that mission, that's why we have RESCORT.

If you want to make the case for Navy helos having forward firing ordnance, then we have to base it on a threat to our fleet at sea! That is our job, protecting the fleet.
I've seen too many HS then HSC folks have grand dreams about the 60H then 60S filling the same role as HAL-3 in Viet Nam.
It's not going to happen because the training required to maintain that capability is not feasible based on the current fight and threat. Even more so since the services are far more Joint than during the 60's and 70's; the Navy's riverine forces can call upon Army or USMC aircraft just as easily as USN aircraft if the situation dictates.

So, other than it is some cool flying, why would the Navy invest the money to develop a skill set that is resident in the sister services and contributes little to the Navy's actual fight?

 

[squorch2]

Old dudes gonna be old... or something like that.

Here's the real skinny - HSC is acquiring and educating folks on this new skill set. The idea is not to go overland, the idea is to have an organic, QRF-style capability for waterborne threats. Overland stuff is - and should remain - the purview of 84 and 85. Rather than train to something of a PR/NSW capability, I say dump it and focus on maritime strike and suppression.

(and yes, HSC has been called to use forward-firing ordnance. But I wasn't there, so I can't speak to the whole story.)

 

[helolumpy]

Old dudes gonna be old... or something like that.

Old dudes gonna provide context of the Navy helos for the last 20 years....

Here's the real skinny - HSC is acquiring and educating folks on this new skill set. The idea is not to go overland, the idea is to have an organic, QRF-style capability for waterborne threats.

Will these be different from the skill set the HH-60H was supposed to have when it was scheduled to get forward firing ordnance (fixed machine guns) back in 1994 for CSAR and ASuW?

Or the same mission that we bought the Penguin ASM for?

Or why we equipped the 60B and 60H with HELLFIRE for?

If we get a better weapon system than the AGM-114, then I'm all for it. But as soon as you start talking about forward firing ordnance you have people start saying CAS and overland missions. (As was done in this very thread a couple of times).

Is there a need for a better weapon system for fleet defense, yes. But they Navy will have to pay for the system and the NCEA and historically the Navy helo community has sucked hind-tit when it came to things like funding for weapons. My Det went out C-3 because we couldn't get a HELLFIRE in workups and the RFF we deployed on was for a HELLFIRE equipped helo.

So if the community has a "new skill set" please let me know what it is, because to this "old dog" is sounds very much like what Navy helos have been talking about for the last 20 years.

 

[phrogdriver]

Wasn't there another thread where we raked the "Navy helos strafing small boats" issue over the coals?

Day HUD. I'll just say I LOVE my night HUD. I've never flown with a day HUD, though apparently one is coming.

I can say that there have been times when I've been doing low-altitude work that I was more comfortable at night than during the day because I didn't have to look inside. Is a day HUD essential? No. But it'd be awful nice.

 

[BACONATOR]

Eh... Like I said, some guys dig it. Other guys with a ton of green ink in the -60 didn't find it necessary. Perhaps helpful with all but some minimal symbology turned off, but nowhere near a NO GO criteria. This was actually a major topic of discussion when we were trying to get our HUDs online and installed.






I know you guys have to brandish the patch every so often, but you do realize how silly these comments sound right now.

I was asking because a day HUD doesn't really seem necessary if it isn't coupled with another weapon system. I hadn't heard of (and why I was asking) the other half of the system as being "purchased" yet. It was an honest question, not trying to be a smart ass about it.

I can split the thread if we need to.

I wore the night HUD.... in the RAG. We try to push studs going through level II or early III to wear it (or at least tactics wants us to push it), but I just never saw the utility. Granted, my green time was sort of the opposite from putting ordnance on target, but I never felt the need to don that abortion of a HUD and find it actually annoying and too long to set up.

 

[squorch2]

I'm all about knowing where you came from and identifying fights that have already been fought - if only so we can avoid the pitfalls of the past. And I agree with you that overland stuff shouldn't be part of what helos bring to the CSG/ESG. But there are lots of folks who are trying to change the culture of rotary-wing aviation in the Navy, and having a credible part in the fight is paramount. This culture change is slow, but it *is* happening. CAGs/strike group commanders are figuring out that HSC/HSM are more than plane guard, vertrep, PMC and SSR and starting to incorporate these new skill sets into their plans.

And why wouldn't they? Witness Bataan's SARDET launching every time with Hellfires, providing a credible threat to those that would approach the boat. Look at HSM/HSC integration and the hunter/killer team concept. As the cultures change, success will beget success and all of a sudden strike groups will wonder how they did business without an armed helo airborne at all times, resulting in more RFFs, more NCEA and more utilization.

At least, that's the idea.

 

[hscs]

Old dudes gonna provide context of the Navy helos for the last 20 years....



Will these be different from the skill set the HH-60H was supposed to have when it was scheduled to get forward firing ordnance (fixed machine guns) back in 1994 for CSAR and ASuW?


If we get a better weapon system than the AGM-114, then I'm all for it. But as soon as you start talking about forward firing ordnance you have people start saying CAS and overland missions. (As was done in this very thread a couple of times).

So if the community has a "new skill set" please let me know what it is, because to this "old dog" is sounds very much like what Navy helos have been talking about for the last 20 years.

Amen, Lumpy. What was it that was said by a member - 'The more things change..."

 

[RotorHead04]

Facepalm. This is becoming just like the conversation actually happening in the "real world." Everyone arguing with everyone else ... these folks advocating the past ... those advocating the future. Guns! Rockets!! Missiles!!!

In my admittedly brief time in Naval Aviation, I have learned that there are two truths:

1.) Most folks making the decisions about what we should do in the future tend to do it based solely on their own past experience (doesn't that sum up all DoD contracts?!?!?)
2.) No one seems to know what to do with Navy Helos, so rather then giving them a focus, Big Navy just continues them to further dilute their attention across a growing number of skill sets -- rather than call it a multi-mission helo, can we just agree to start calling it the "helo of infinite possibilities"

I will be the LAST person to argue that we (HSC) could just pick up some guns and run with those that have CAS as a sole mission. Notice, though, I have never argued that. Nor have I argued that your average HSC squadron is ready to do dedicated assault support (or NSW support, since most aquaflage folks don't know that they are the same) with no extra training. Are these missions that they are capable of? Sure. But if you want someone to be good at X, you can't expect them to be as good at other things.

I will argue that HSC squadrons are full of great pilots and aircrewmen. These are some of the the most versatile and flexible folks you will ever meet. You know why? Because their job title changes with the wind. It's demanded that they maintain some level of proficiency in as many as four major Primary Mission Areas at any given time. It is not uncommon for a two aircraft detachment to be consistently held accountable for no less than two. While this is admirable, it begs the question, is it necessary? Is it even useful?

Someone had this grand plan that we could shove all of these missions into one squadron with one airframe. I don't know who was at the table when this plan was devised, but I really wonder what the end goal was. As long as depth of experience wasn't an expectation, I suppose the ruse worked, but in the grand scheme of things, what is gained? -84 and -85 get fragged with assault support missions because they have been allowed to focus their attention on that and not much else. How great would HSC be at [something] if they were allowed to train to a finite number of missions?

So bring on the FFW (all I really wanted was a Day HUD for consistency, remember?) ... I'll study as I hard as I can, shoot my measly NCEA, and impart as much as I can to my young padawans. I'll sling load a nuclear bomb too if it will save someone on their bottom line. But don't be shocked when I pickle that fucker into the great blue abyss because I see a small boat approaching Mom, and yesterday the same button was used for shooting rockets ...

 

[Harrier Dude]

It's demanded that they maintain some level of proficiency in as many as four major Primary Mission Areas at any given time.

Just out of curiosity, what are these areas?

 

[RotorHead04]

Just out of curiosity, what are these areas?

Naval Special Warfare, Personnel Recovery, Anti Surface Warfare, and for the legacy HS folks, Anti Submarine Warfare. Still waiting in the wings is Airborne Mine Countermeasures ... apparently the towing is finally canned, but there are other methods that are still funded.

 

[bert]

It's so cute when people think the current state of the Navy's helicopter communities is the result of some kind of coherent, rational decision making process spanning the decades and driven by a consistent vision and a clear understanding of both future requirements and future resources.

And it isn't that the leadership and their acquisition minions don't want to do that - they'd love to. They really do want to do the right thing. But given the constraints of the current model we live with we just can't, so you see the underfunded Swiss army knife-ish concept we have now.

The good news is that as long as you can do ass, trash and SAR competently you will be forgiven for just winging it in the myriad of other missions that will bubble up and fade in and out through the years.

 

[RotorHead04]

The good news is that as long as you can do ass, trash and SAR competently you will be forgiven for just winging it in the myriad of other missions that will bubble up and fade in and out through the years.

We'll see. I hope you're right, but I don't share your optimism. I feel like it's more likely that the CYA culture we live in will sooner shit on someone than forgive them anything.