Airspeed Restriction Below "B"

[Harrier Dude]

+1

I've never seen or heard of anyone getting "busted", or even a call, about speed the speed restrictions.... I have, however, seen people recently violated for many different things (i.e. turning left when they say turn right, Bravo clearance, air show stuff, etc). Usually it only involves a phone call to clear things up, but I've definitely seen people get letters on their certificate.... mostly because they didn't file a NASA form.

As an aside... Not sure if/how the whole NASA form works for Military guys, but it's a great thing for civilian pilots. If you think you've made a big mistake (i.e. airspace violation, etc), then you'll do yourself good by filing that form ASAP. They can still find you guilty, but they can't take any certificate actions against you.

So when you say "busted", you mean getting the "call me at this number when you land" routine from the controller?

To me "busted" means flight violated.

Not sure what good the NASA form would be for us. We aren't required to have any civilian certificates to begin with, and we can't be directly violated by the FAA anyway.

A phone call to approach or center when you know you screwed up is always a good idea, though.

 

[pilot_man]

I've never adhered to </= 200 kts in the Hornet anywhere, except the landing pattern. That being said, I'm probably one of the only guys out there who pays attention to 250 below 10k while in socal airspace....at least if I'm a singleton. I think there is a broad misconception that we have a blanket waiver everywhere to exceed that, which we don't, and I don't buy the safety card.....250 is plenty safe in a Hornet.

That "safety card" comes from NATOPS. While the jet can fly at 200 kts, it won't maneuver like it would at 300. NATOPS says up to 350 kts may be required. I always say unable if asked to fly below 250.

 

[Harrier Dude]

That "safety card" comes from NATOPS. While the jet can fly at 200 kts, it won't maneuver like it would at 300. NATOPS says up to 350 kts may be required. I always say unable if asked to fly below 250.

Especially as -4. In the Harrier below 250 in formation is borderline unsafe. Definitely uncomfortable.

 

[phrogpilot73]

I had a recent debacle where I spent what seemed like more time on the phone with Potomac Approach while working in the DC SFRA than I did flying, all because FSS was as screwed up as a football bat. At one point, Washington Center was looking for us on Guard - and FSS had launched SAR (aka Civilian Air Patrol). Meanwhile, we were safe on deck at Stafford refueling - and the only reason I knew they were calling for us on guard was because I got a text message from the ODO.

Each time I got on the phone with them, I was preparing to get my pee-pee smacked - but no, I hadn't done anything wrong - just FSS was THAT jacked up... Although it did cause our group CO to call our squadron CO to find out what was going on (I can only imagine group found out because someone in the group heard Washington Center calling for us). Micromanagement at its finest.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Did you not close out your flightplan or something?

 

[ryan1234]

So when you say "busted", you mean getting the "call me at this number when you land" routine from the controller?

To me "busted" means flight violated.

Not sure what good the NASA form would be for us. We aren't required to have any civilian certificates to begin with, and we can't be directly violated by the FAA anyway.

A phone call to approach or center when you know you screwed up is always a good idea, though.

By "Busted", I mean a letter on your certificate. A few guys I know, civilians, have been "busted" because of airspace restriction stuff. It all began with the phone call and then escalated into a certificate action depending on the severity of the situation and who was watching.

Yeah, I didn't know what good the NASA form would be for you all... but if any of you all are flying on your own dime in the civilian world, it's definitely worth doing.

 

[KBayDog]

Yeah, I didn't know what good the NASA form would be for you all... but if any of you all are flying on your own dime in the civilian world, it's definitely worth doing.

We have a program similar to the NASA ASRS called "ASAP" (Aviation Safety Awareness Program). It's similar to ASRS in that it's a way to anonymously report aviation safety/procedural/etc. issues, with no retribution. One "shall" be completed after each flight, even if there is nothing to report.

Unlike ASRS, however, there is no online database of "So there I was..." stories (yet?). Certain personnel in the squadron safety departments have access to ASAP narratives, and will sometimes use them for squadron training or to address trends with the appropriate agencies, but it seems that ASAP is more about data collection (at least for now). Are there any ASAP ninjas out there who could inform us of the inner workings of ASAP?

 

[phrogpilot73]

Did you not close out your flightplan or something?

Nope. Quantico is considered "local area" for us, so the only thing we have to do is file an SFRA flight plan. Problem is - you have to file an entry flight plan, and an exit flight plan. When we filed in air (base ops punted it into the stands, because our original flight plan was never filed), we put MCAF as our termination for the entry with "will be working in RXXXX for 3 hours", then we filed another exit flight plan to take us out to Stafford for gas (weekend, MCAF is closed for gas). Once we were talking to Potomac approach, they knew exactly what we were doing (it's common for helos to work in the restricted area with no need to stop at MCAF for gas), but then FSS starting flipping out. First message to call Potomac approach was to clear up what we were doing because they were getting confused based on what FSS was trying to tell them.

When we were done with the first half of the frag, we coordinated with Potomac approach so that we'd keep our squawk, and stay on our first entry SFRA flight plan, then our exit SFRA flight plan would be when we were done for the day. That's where FSS's brain melted down. Got a message to call Potomac Approach (again, because FSS was confused), ended up on the phone with FSS and explained what we were doing. FSS asked if we wanted to file a SAR VFR flight plan, and we responded No. I guess they decided we wanted one anyway, and copied stuff from our original exit & entry flight plans which put us down as a late aircraft... That's what caused the SAR to launch. Ended up on the phone with Potomac Approach & Washington Center again, as I'm watching CAP aircraft land, taxi by - look at us, and leave... All because FSS decided I didn't know what I was talking about, and submitted a SAR VFR flight plan for us anyway...

 

[Recovering LSO]

Busted? Probably not. Reminded? Probably. My buddy was asked to slow it down coming in for a TACAN into Whiting one evening after being the RDO

Slow it down on a TACAN into NSE....!? That controller should be fired for not being able to keep up with a turboprop.

When they were first rolled out, it wasn't uncommon to hear such reminders for T-6s on Pensacola Approach. ("Red Knight 650, watch your airspeed in the class charlie...")

This sounds more like bored controllers trying to make sure those danged navy boys know who's in charge! I mean really, if they're sweating the speed of T-34s and T-6's around NW FL.... Sucks to be you guys.

 

[squorch2]

We have a program similar to the NASA ASRS called "ASAP" (Aviation Safety Awareness Program). It's similar to ASRS in that it's a way to anonymously report aviation safety/procedural/etc. issues, with no retribution. One "shall" be completed after each flight, even if there is nothing to report.

Unlike ASRS, however, there is no online database of "So there I was..." stories (yet?). Certain personnel in the squadron safety departments have access to ASAP narratives, and will sometimes use them for squadron training or to address trends with the appropriate agencies, but it seems that ASAP is more about data collection (at least for now). Are there any ASAP ninjas out there who could inform us of the inner workings of ASAP?

ASAP is another tool in safety's bag o' tricks. Different squadrons do it differently, but my HT squadron has two logins - one for students and one for instructors. Once an ASAP is submitted with comments, it goes into a queue waiting to be reviewed by the ASAP officer, ASO or other safety type. (ASAPs without comments are automatically closed out.) Our safety dept. has used ASAPs as a tool to illustrate trends to recalcitrant agencies such as ATC, BASH, etc. who basically say "I don't think the problem is as big as you say it is." We've also used ASAPs to generate HAZREPs for more systemic issues. Additionally, the ASAP officer selects the 10 "best" ASAPs per month and sends them up to the CO, who makes comments on them, which are then posted in the hallways for all to see.

 

[KBayDog]

Thanks, squorch. That's about the extent of my knowledges of ASAP.

 

[Harrier Dude]

I've never in my life heard of this ASAP program. Am I supposed to be using it?

It sounds like yet another Safety Center attempt to collect a billion data points, do absolutely ZERO analysis on that data, and then hide all anecdotal lessons learned from all of us because of "privilege".

Does that about cover it?

 

[Harrier Dude]

Nope. Quantico is considered "local area" for us, so the only thing we have to do is file an SFRA flight plan. Problem is - you have to file an entry flight plan, and an exit flight plan. When we filed in air (base ops punted it into the stands, because our original flight plan was never filed), we put MCAF as our termination for the entry with "will be working in RXXXX for 3 hours", then we filed another exit flight plan to take us out to Stafford for gas (weekend, MCAF is closed for gas). Once we were talking to Potomac approach, they knew exactly what we were doing (it's common for helos to work in the restricted area with no need to stop at MCAF for gas), but then FSS starting flipping out. First message to call Potomac approach was to clear up what we were doing because they were getting confused based on what FSS was trying to tell them.

When we were done with the first half of the frag, we coordinated with Potomac approach so that we'd keep our squawk, and stay on our first entry SFRA flight plan, then our exit SFRA flight plan would be when we were done for the day. That's where FSS's brain melted down. Got a message to call Potomac Approach (again, because FSS was confused), ended up on the phone with FSS and explained what we were doing. FSS asked if we wanted to file a SAR VFR flight plan, and we responded No. I guess they decided we wanted one anyway, and copied stuff from our original exit & entry flight plans which put us down as a late aircraft... That's what caused the SAR to launch. Ended up on the phone with Potomac Approach & Washington Center again, as I'm watching CAP aircraft land, taxi by - look at us, and leave... All because FSS decided I didn't know what I was talking about, and submitted a SAR VFR flight plan for us anyway...

Sounds like the typical East Coast problem where they (ATC) forget who works for who.

 

[KBayDog]

I've never in my life heard of this ASAP program. Am I supposed to be using it?

According to the Uniform version of 3710 (3.15), yes (after you've been trained, of course). Don't feel bad - I never heard of it until I arrived at my current assignment. I was greeted with a stunned, "You've *gulp* never heard of ASAP??"

It sounds like yet another Safety Center attempt to collect a billion data points, do absolutely ZERO analysis on that data, and then hide all anecdotal lessons learned from all of us because of "privilege".

Does that about cover it?

'Cruit don't know. All I know the Skipper has a standing note on the schedule to make sure it gets done, so it shall be done.

 

[Recovering LSO]

it could be a decent program, if it weren't another piece of paper to fill out / complete post flight, and therefore it understandably gets dropped by the wayside. Oh, and it doesn't work underway...