Airlines & The Unions: The Classic Love-Hate Relationship:

[Steve Wilkins]

Not trying to hijack the thread or take it down a different direction, but most brokers couldn't really care less whether you make money on your investments. Of course it's "a great buy" to them. The stock is so cheap right now, they can probably convince a lot of people to buy it and thus make a few coins themselves off the sale. These guys are glorified car dealerships/salesmen. The more you buy, the more they make.....NOT the more you make, the more you make.

But you probably already know this.

 

[A4sForever]

Not trying to hijack the thread or take it down a different direction, but most brokers couldn't really care less whether you make money on your investments........

Agreed .... (this is getting spooky) ..... but then; we said that 4 or the analysts (50%) advocated a "HOLD" position ---- no commissions there. Interestingly, even with a mechanics strike a possibility --- no "SELL" recommendations --- which is where a broker can also make some money for himself .....

.......but you probably already know this .....

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Agreed .... (this is getting spooky) ...

I must be rubbing off on you.

.. but then; we said that 4 or the analysts (50%) advocated a "HOLD" position ---- no commissions there. Interestingly, even with a mechanics strike a possibility --- no "SELL" recommendations --- which is where a broker can also make some money for himself .....

Most likely because they see the value of the stock going up, soon after which you'll be hearing from those same analysts a sell recommendation. Not surprising there's no sell recommendations. You might as well hold on to the damn stock at this point if you already own it. They'll wait till the stock price rises, and then issue sell rec, therefore making more commission on each sell/buy.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

I don't understand what is really gained by outsourcing some of their maintenance work.

 

[A4sForever]

I don't understand what is really gained by outsourcing some of their maintenance work.

WHAT's GAINED ??? !!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for the company ... oh, Steve ... you're so precious.

 

[wink]

All the company wants is a certain dollar amount of value in the contract. If they want a 25% pay cut and some outsourced work then the mechs can take a bigger pay cut and keep work in house or take the money and run. If the union is really interested in a deal they can counter with productivity increases that will give the approximate value of out sourced work and preserve their jobs. Truely, the company does not care where the money/savings comes from.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

WHAT's GAINED ??? !!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for the company

Yea, I get that part. What doesn't make sense (to me at least) is how outsourcing is saving any money. The maintenance has to get done and there's no getting around that. Now, I guess if whoever they outsource to can (or will) do the maintenance for a lower price then obviously the airline can save some money. Is that what we're looking at here? If that's the case, then it makes perfect sense.

But then we have that pesky problem again: unions.

 

[wink]

Now, I guess if whoever they outsource to can (or will) do the maintenance for a lower price then obviously the airline can save some money. Is that what we're looking at here? If that's the case, then it makes perfect sense.

.

More then one airline you would be familier with finds it cost effective to actually fly their aircraft half way around the world for major overhauls. You can imagine how much less expensive it is to get work done in El Salvador or Korea.

 

[HAL Pilot]

But then we have that pesky problem again: unions.

Steve,

Until I got to Hawaiian, I felt the same way. Now I've seen just how much the union protects us (or try to). In Hawaiians recent bankruptcy, we would have lost everything - pay, pension and workrules - if it was not for ALPA. As it was, we gave up significantly (about $8 million annually spread over 284 pilots while 14 high managers walked away with $17 million in bonuses and the former owner $25 million in profit from a stock buyback).

Being military you are very protected. How would you feel if Congress decided to cut your pay by 40%, slashed your pension to a 401K, and reduce your 30 days leave to 15 while giving themselves a raise and putting their pension in untouchable trusts? All to offset the raising cost of social security and medicare? After all, shouldn't the military (employees) bear the continually raising costs of of providing the public these benefits? Why should the public pay for their benefits by raising taxes when the government can just reduce employee costs instead?

While I'll grant that unions can go overboard in their zeal, this is not the case in the airline industry now. Everyone has taken pay cuts, etc. It's time for the public to pay for the raising cost of their transportation instead of the employees.

 

[wink]

Steve,

After all, shouldn't the military (employees) bear the continually raising costs of of providing the public these benefits? Why should the public pay for their benefits by raising taxes when the government can just reduce employee costs instead?

.

Fair analogy up to this point. Most all airlines have tried to raise fares to help make a profit and prevent employee give backs. There is no logical reason for an airline to suppress fares to the point of losses and bankruptcy. There is plenty to criticise in how airline mangement has delt with the business climate these past five years. But suppressing fares just so they have an excuse to lower salaries is not one of them.

 

[A4sForever]

.......Now, I guess if whoever they outsource to can (or will) do the maintenance for a lower price then obviously the airline can save some money. Is that what we're looking at here? If that's the case, then it makes perfect sense.
But then we have that pesky problem again: unions.

Right .... unions ..... my favorite subject. I love unions .....

But, Steve..... Steve ...... Steve ...... *sigh* There you go again. I keep having such high hopes for you and then you go make a mess in your panties.

I have experienced "outsourcing" for years, both overseas and domestically. As a general rule --- unionized, or "company" mechanics turn out a superior product. Not always -- just usually. Some of the outsourced stuff is good, some of it is bad. In 27 years of commercial aviation, I cannot say I ever had "bad" maintainence from one of my company mechanics. But don't even try to think that the FAA will be the great equalizer of quality and safety between union and contract mechanics --- those FAA boys and girls are bureaucrats ---they do the bidding of their masters, and those political masters and their priorities are constantly changing.

But really, some of you fellows need to get over your knee-jerk prejudice and bigotry against trade unions. I didn't come from a union family -- my Dad hated unions. But I learned they have a place in the "real world", usually where they're coupled with predatory management teams. They have many faults, unions -- believe me, I know. I am something of an "outlaw" when it comes to being union-lockstep. But having said that, when it comes to some areas of American industry --- like the airlines --- unions can do the job better than most of the "outsourcing" contractors in every area, except price. And we're talking about maintaining and flying airplanes here --- not making shoes or underwear. Unions do especially well when it comes to things like standards, training, QA, and accountability. They are not perfect ... just better. I can hardly wait until some of you boys and girls are out in civie street --- where you actually have to turn a profit --- and there is no Big Blue to come to the financial rescue no matter how well or how poorly you perform your job.

Truly, Alice in Wonderland would be envious .....

You don't like unions? Fine ... but why? Just the bottom line?? Then you are as short-sighted and bull-headed as those on the other side who think the union is the only solution. Personally, I prefer our company mechanics and certified replacement parts to questionable, re-tread parts and Chinese mechanics. Or Japanese mechs. Or Filipino. Or Mexican. By the way --- our Japanese mechanics used to be the finest on the system or anywhere in the world --- until the company sh!t-canned them a few years back in favor of cheaper contract and "on-call" maintenance. The quality and reliability has never been the same ..... but hey!!! It's cheaper --- and that's what you like --- until you add up your lost flights and the associated lost revenue.

I got it !!! How about if we "outsource" our national defense?? At least in the SWO arena ??? We could certainly save a ton of money !! I'll bet we could get some Botswanans or Peruvians or Swiss (even!!) to do your job and do it a heck of a lot cheaper -- who cares whether or not it's done right ??? Cheaper is the name of the game, right??? Hmmmm .... Let's say .... 1/4 your monthly stipend and a bag of rice? Or chocolate bar for the Swiss ??? And of course, no retirement .... ... what do old people need with money, anyway???

What -- you still want something cheaper ??? Then why don't you buy a Chinese car??? I am sure you would save some money without all that union labor driving the costs up. It might not run too well nor too long, but hey!!! Just get another one, right ???

That should not be a problem .... and the big plus would be not having to concern yourself with those "pesky problem(s) again:" i.e., "unions" .....

 

[Steve Wilkins]

[font=Verdana,Sans-Serif]SAN FRANCISCO (Dow Jones) -- Members of the union representing mechanics who work on Northwest Airlines' planes voted to authorize a strike against the airline, setting the stage for a showdown during the busiest travel period of the year.[/font]

I wonder how many of the actual mechanics want this strike. To work, or not to work. To feed their families, or not to feed their families. I'm sure they really don't want to take a pay cut or even worse, lose their jobs either. But really, isn't that a risk of any civilian job?

 

[eddie]

I wonder how many of the actual mechanics want this strike. To work, or not to work. To feed their families, or not to feed their families. I'm sure they really don't want to take a pay cut or even worse, lose their jobs either. But really, isn't that a risk of any civilian job?

Steve... aren't you the one who's always telling everyone that everything is a lot more complicated then they are making everything out to be?

 

[HOORAH]

I wonder how many of the actual mechanics want this strike. To work, or not to work. To feed their families, or not to feed their families. I'm sure they really don't want to take a pay cut or even worse, lose their jobs either. But really, isn't that a risk of any civilian job?

Well frankly the insurance company I used to work for would take care of this, as long as you have it and your union is involved. It is an all union insurance company and there are a ton of benefits for union members when they go on strike. Anywhere from pay, no payments to keep the insurance(whether on strike for 1 day or a year), and food.

 

[A4sForever]

I know several mechanics --- none of them "want" to go on strike. But a significant percentage (> 90% i.e., overwhelming?) voted "for" the strike ballot. That's how things are done in labor/management relations in the real world --- hard ball, nose-to-nose, and brinksmanship. Who's going to blink first ????

To my earlier point --- I think NWA wants to "break" the mechanics union as another step toward their ultimate goal of a "minimum" of 1.1 billion in labor cost savings (read: pay and benefits reductions --- productivity issues have largely been resolved). If they can break them --- they can break others. NWA has been actively soliciting outside mechanics for some time as stike breakers while pretending to negotiate with AMFA. Is that bad faith negotiating ?? Some would say prudent business planning. I suppose it depends which side of the table you are sitting on .....

So you have to ask yourself at some point --- what is your job worth? Is it worth working for decades only to have huge pay reductions and your retirement disappear just when you need it most --- i.e., when kids are in schools, mortgages have to be paid, and bills keep coming in .... what's it worth? I think those kinds of questions are the real ones going through the heads of the 90%+ AMFA mechs who voted to authorize a strike.

And pay and benefits during a stike ... ?? That's rich ... When I had to walk the picket line several years ago --- no pay or benefits --- the only additional "benefit" I got was blisters on my feet ....

I realize most of you on this site are anti-union. I used to be and maybe still am in many ways. But many of you are also clueless as to the realities of the civilian workplace when it comes to labor relations. And predatory managements ..... if every company was run by a kind, generous, and beneficent owner/mgmt team ... who would need unions ??? Those that are run like that (very few ...) usually have happy employees and turn a consistent profit for themselves and their shareholders.

Many of you want to work for the airlines at some point in time --- so now is the time to start paying attention and educating yourself to the realities of the industry instead of snorting uninformed, knee-jerk reactions. If you don't take the opportunity to learn now, you wil learn later and probably be disappointed ....

In the end ... you have to know your limitations and ask yourself :

Which "strike" is really more dangerous to your health and well-being .... ???

..... or .....