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Airlines & The Unions: The Classic Love-Hate Relationship:
- Thread starter ChuckMK23
- Start date
What's your prediction
Will the replacement maintenance mechanics eventually fall behind? Put another way, will they gradually, over time, prove unable to support the NWA "Fall Flight Schedule" (which they say they implemented early in response to the strike of the maintenance mechanics)?
Your prediction or opinion?
Will the replacement maintenance mechanics eventually fall behind? Put another way, will they gradually, over time, prove unable to support the NWA "Fall Flight Schedule" (which they say they implemented early in response to the strike of the maintenance mechanics)?
Your prediction or opinion?
snizo
Supply Officer
The new NWA mechs aren't just guys who had always wanted to get in to aviation maint but have no experience. They have a minimum of 4 or 5 years with an average of 14 yrs experience. NWA operates a very large fleet of DC-9 aircraft - all of them quite old. That means plenty of time for all these replacement workers to have learned how to work on this type of aircraft from other airlines. They have nearly 2,000 contract employees right now - and were hoping to cut the union labor to a bit more than that. Looks like they effectively replaced almost the entire work force in a single day. I'm not too worried about NWA falling behind schedule as things move forward - the longer the strike goes on, the more likely some of the old mechs are to cross the line to get a paycheck. That would supplement the work force.
This is what happens when you get a group of people who think they can manage a business more effectively than the people who are paid to do just that. Good for NWA for telling the union to go f-- themselves.
This is what happens when you get a group of people who think they can manage a business more effectively than the people who are paid to do just that. Good for NWA for telling the union to go f-- themselves.
That's rough
The new NWA mechs aren't just guys who had always wanted to get in to aviation maint but have no experience. They have a minimum of 4 or 5 years with an average of 14 yrs experience.
Reassuring.
I'm not too worried about NWA falling behind schedule as things move forward - the longer the strike goes on, the more likely some of the old mechs are to cross the line to get a paycheck. That would supplement the work force.
Likely true, very likely.
This is what happens when you get a group of people who think they can manage a business more effectively than the people who are paid to do just that. Good for NWA for telling the union to go f-- themselves.
Harsh but probably true. My uninformed and entirely micro-economic viewpoint holds that the airline industry is being transformed - against its will - by de-regulation and soaring fuel prices. I just can't see how the decades old trends in salaries can continue. It's not personal just economics. As I have repeatedly said (too often) we just can't get comfortable with such a glamorous industry being impacted by the same economic forces which have hit less glamorous industries.
The new NWA mechs aren't just guys who had always wanted to get in to aviation maint but have no experience. They have a minimum of 4 or 5 years with an average of 14 yrs experience.
Reassuring.
I'm not too worried about NWA falling behind schedule as things move forward - the longer the strike goes on, the more likely some of the old mechs are to cross the line to get a paycheck. That would supplement the work force.
Likely true, very likely.
This is what happens when you get a group of people who think they can manage a business more effectively than the people who are paid to do just that. Good for NWA for telling the union to go f-- themselves.
Harsh but probably true. My uninformed and entirely micro-economic viewpoint holds that the airline industry is being transformed - against its will - by de-regulation and soaring fuel prices. I just can't see how the decades old trends in salaries can continue. It's not personal just economics. As I have repeatedly said (too often) we just can't get comfortable with such a glamorous industry being impacted by the same economic forces which have hit less glamorous industries.
Just curious ... what is your "real world" or "life experience" that gives you this perspective on labor-management relations??? Have you ever been in management of a large corporation ? Ever been in a labor union? I'm curious .... what's your experience, knowledge, and training?snizo said:
snizo
Supply Officer
You mean this kind of conclusion?
People with direct experience in business management who also have an educational background in business management are better suited for managing a business.
My basis would probably be logical thinking skills.
There's also the thought that "it isn't their job to run the company" .... and of course - you could also consider the fact that the vast majority of other very profitable companies do the same thing ... and very few would hire someone 'unfit' - say a DC-9-50 mechanic with no business administration experience - to be CEO as strong evidence, as well...
People with direct experience in business management who also have an educational background in business management are better suited for managing a business.
My basis would probably be logical thinking skills.
There's also the thought that "it isn't their job to run the company" .... and of course - you could also consider the fact that the vast majority of other very profitable companies do the same thing ... and very few would hire someone 'unfit' - say a DC-9-50 mechanic with no business administration experience - to be CEO as strong evidence, as well...
You would think that would be a logical consclusion, however airline management industry wide has proven again and again that they can not adapt to changing conditions. They are still locked in the regulation era of thinking. Maybe it's because airlines pay there managers less than other larger corporations so they get the more inept managers. Or maybe its because nothing else in the management arena is like manging an airline. The managers all OJT to the determent of the airlines.snizo said:
snizo
Supply Officer
Or maybe the airline industry is so variable that it is difficult to adapt?
I would tend to think that the cause of this was that airlines assumed that business would keep booming and got in to more and more debt buying more and more aircraft ... but NWA arguably has the one of the 'cheapest' fleets because they own 100% of a lot of their planes and haven't had as aggressive of a fleet renewal program as other airlines. Continental, for example, has a more expensive fleet but is profitable.
Could be fuel, too ... SWA is getting around this because they bought tons of is before it started getting expensive.
Labor unions ... low cost carrier competition ... Who knows for sure what the combination is? it takes a lot to sink a ship...
I would tend to think that the cause of this was that airlines assumed that business would keep booming and got in to more and more debt buying more and more aircraft ... but NWA arguably has the one of the 'cheapest' fleets because they own 100% of a lot of their planes and haven't had as aggressive of a fleet renewal program as other airlines. Continental, for example, has a more expensive fleet but is profitable.
Could be fuel, too ... SWA is getting around this because they bought tons of is before it started getting expensive.
Labor unions ... low cost carrier competition ... Who knows for sure what the combination is? it takes a lot to sink a ship...
A4sForever said:
ANSWER posted by "snizo" :
I'm still waiting; Hell ... we're ALL waiting for a response that is not Bullsh!t .... the above does not cut it, Junior. What have you done besides wet the bed and dream about being a pilot .... ??? Your response is the functional equivalent of "Just Because" ....so illuminate us as to what your expertise on the subject is or get off the platform .... I've been there and I recognize Bullsh!t when I hear it .... so don't try. How about a straight answer??? ... if you can ???? I am growing weary of the panty-waists on AW who shoot off their mouths with no background or experience to back up their viewpoints on serious subjects.snizo said:
Fish or cut bait, Junior,
A4sForever.... no smiles for Junior -- you give me a rash.
With considerable trepidation ...
This topic seems to have engendered some strong opinions on the part of A4s. To try to lessen the radioactivity of this topic, I offer a little vignette.
I think I have some experience here. The union shop steward/chapter president works for me at my organization. When I learned that this person was being reorganized into my group, I had visions of grievance procedures, EEO complaints, and lawsuits headed my way.
Turns out this person is just splendid, a hard worker, and very dedicated to their work. It seems that just treating someone with courtesy, respect, while showing genuine appreciation for doing a good job goes a long way. No lawsuits, etc., headin' my way, thank goodness. :icon_smil
No, my microscopic experience with union-labor relations is not at all typical. It might be atypical. I may be living on either borrowed time or thin ice. But I have found the experience, while indeed microscopic in scale, to have been rewarding. :icon_smil
A4sForever said:
This topic seems to have engendered some strong opinions on the part of A4s. To try to lessen the radioactivity of this topic, I offer a little vignette.
I think I have some experience here. The union shop steward/chapter president works for me at my organization. When I learned that this person was being reorganized into my group, I had visions of grievance procedures, EEO complaints, and lawsuits headed my way.
Turns out this person is just splendid, a hard worker, and very dedicated to their work. It seems that just treating someone with courtesy, respect, while showing genuine appreciation for doing a good job goes a long way. No lawsuits, etc., headin' my way, thank goodness. :icon_smil
No, my microscopic experience with union-labor relations is not at all typical. It might be atypical. I may be living on either borrowed time or thin ice. But I have found the experience, while indeed microscopic in scale, to have been rewarding. :icon_smil
No, he just gets cranky when he runs out of margarita mix and/or limes. :icon_rastUSN99 said:
snizo
Supply Officer
What do you want from me, A4? A powerpoint explaining how I came up with such an obvious conclusion? If you want me to discuss this with you, how about you challenge the position instead of the person? Perhaps you would rather keep calling people 'junior' so you can make yourself come off as the wise old man.
Don't get all angry with me because you made the assuption that I'm some little ignorant kid who doesn't know what he is talking about. You don't know a thing about me and you don't know a thing about my background.
If you have something to say to me, then say it. Otherwise move on. I have no obligation to explain myself to you here.
Don't get all angry with me because you made the assuption that I'm some little ignorant kid who doesn't know what he is talking about. You don't know a thing about me and you don't know a thing about my background.
If you have something to say to me, then say it. Otherwise move on. I have no obligation to explain myself to you here.
HUMOR and AIRLINE MANAGEMENT DEPT:
Mesaba Airlines management is insisting that first-year pilots, who were earning $21,000 a year, reimburse Mesaba for thousands of dollars in training costs because the pilots left Mesaba shortly before their furlough dates. Some of those first-year pilots who were about to lose their jobs had found employment with other companies and gave Mesaba two weeks’ notice.
Despite the fact that these pilots were already being furloughed by Mesaba, management is holding these pilots to a pay-for-training agreement that they signed when they were hired. Some of these pilots have received bills for more than $10,000 (half of their annual salary at Mesaba).
... and you wonder why some people ... "go postal" ...
Mesaba Airlines management is insisting that first-year pilots, who were earning $21,000 a year, reimburse Mesaba for thousands of dollars in training costs because the pilots left Mesaba shortly before their furlough dates. Some of those first-year pilots who were about to lose their jobs had found employment with other companies and gave Mesaba two weeks’ notice.
Despite the fact that these pilots were already being furloughed by Mesaba, management is holding these pilots to a pay-for-training agreement that they signed when they were hired. Some of these pilots have received bills for more than $10,000 (half of their annual salary at Mesaba).
... and you wonder why some people ... "go postal" ...
You young'uns thinking of the airlline business, especially if it requires toiling in the commuter and regional ranks, had better take note of the above post. Sounds like fodder for the late night comedians, but it is painfully true for many. This is just a little insight into the managment style of companies in the regional and commuter ranks.