Every time we go to the sim. So at least once a year, sometimes more.
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Air France Flt 447 Crash
- Thread starter Criminal
- Start date
Yes - I just did it in the sim in April. You have to stick the nose waaaayyyyy over. About 20 degrees in the 767 for a high altitude deep stall. You'll lose at least 3000 feet, maybe more. This is different from the normal stall recover where we keep the nose about 5 degrees above the horizon and power out of it.
So as I understand it from the article, no AOA indications on the Airbus. Is this common in airline land? The more I fly with an AOA gauge, the more I think that every airplane should have one and that it should get drummed into novice pilots' heads how to use one. I never really appreciated it until Meridian.
Granted, you need to scan everything in the cockpit to figure out what's going on, especially when the other guy has the controls (biggest SA builder in the world), but if I ever get in any kind of dynamic flight regime, I spend quite a bit of my scan looking at that thing, at least when I know my pilot is about to put a pull on, or if he's done so unexpectedly.
Granted, you need to scan everything in the cockpit to figure out what's going on, especially when the other guy has the controls (biggest SA builder in the world), but if I ever get in any kind of dynamic flight regime, I spend quite a bit of my scan looking at that thing, at least when I know my pilot is about to put a pull on, or if he's done so unexpectedly.
On the 767, we have no AOA indicator. We do have an AOA probe that feeds the FMS and provides both high and low speed stall ranges on our HSI airspeed tape (always) as well as an indication on the pitch ladder (in certain flight regimes).
Same in other products than Boeing as well. Most a/c have the ability to 'broadcast' AOA to the crew via PFD/MFD/EFIS but for one reason or another they do not. I can tell you in my airframe it is a simple cannon plug that gets unplugged after the company takes delivery, why the MFR does this I have no clue. It takes a deeper understanding and research of the systems to find out at what AOA things happen (shaker/pusher/low speed cues), but I can tell you most studs I see, whether they are 'fresh out' of their CFI 'tours' or the salty dogs that have been around awhile, generally do not have a solid grasp on what AOA in the cockpit looks like and most commonly its because they don't use it like we do in god's navy.
Wholeheartedly agree, the early A4D-2 (A-4Bs) that my Squadrons flew on my first 2 deployments did not have AoA Indicators or glareshield-mounted AoA Indexers. When I returned to the fleet after first shore tour, all A-4s were either retrofitted, or had new factory AoA systems installed.
What a difference it made on CV landings, especially at night. Black landings were slightly easier...but immensely SAFER!
BzB
Wholeheartedly agree, the early A4D-2 (A-4Bs) that my Squadrons flew on my first 2 deployments did not have AoA Indicators or glareshield-mounted AoA Indexers. When I returned to the fleet after first shore tour, all A-4s were either retrofitted, or had new factory AoA systems installed.
What a difference it made on CV landings, especially at night. Black landings were slightly easier...but immensely SAFER!
BzB
I can't even fathom that. Did you fly an airspeed calculated from gross weight?
Yes, and those rough A/S - gr. wt. calcs had to be pretty much committed to memory. The kneeboard calc. chart card is unusable on a single seat night approach. A good LSO was also invaluable. ALL of my "Paddles" were the best!
BzB
Don't know what the collective pointy-nosed habit pattern is, but we in the Prowler community calculate and verbalize on-speed as part of the before landing checklist. AOA can (and has on many occasions) been erroneous, and chasing an incorrect AOA without knowing what IAS you should be at can lead to being dangerously slow. Couple that with very few seat of the pants cues that you're approaching a stalled condition and things can get ugly very quickly. Yea Grumman engineering.
Can't speak for anything else, but the -45 is the same way...
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
There was gouge numbers most E-2 pilots know/knew for on-speed in different configurations (most common being 20degree / 2/3 flap) but the E-2 also felt "Weird" when it was slow. Hard to describe exactly, but you'd have a bit of a leaning back sensation, and you'd be way up on the power.
Problem with the Prowler is that it's more or less neutrally stable in pitch in the landing configuration. Slow? Fast? The jet doesn't care; it'll just stay there until it's told to move. One of many aerodynamic head-scratchers about the Flying Drumstick.
The Goosehawk will at least attempt to return to onspeed if you stop squeezing the black out of the stick and trim properly.
The Goosehawk will at least attempt to return to onspeed if you stop squeezing the black out of the stick and trim properly.
Jim Davis
Member
I do fly the a320. What is interesting is that there is a procedure for CFIT that requires full aft stick and max thrust. You then sit back and the computer flight laws give you best possible climb. The caveat is that if your pitot is not working then you are in a degraded situation. The other thing that was interesting is that the stall warning only works up to a certain AOA. They were above it and when they relaxed the back stick the AOA fell back into the warning zone so they pulled.
There is no substitution for situational awareness.
There is no substitution for situational awareness.
I don't gnats ass the on-speed A/S calculation. I know what the airspeed should be at max trap. Other than that, I just sanity check it. I know that I should be looking at 8* NU with 0* FPA on-speed on downwind (0 VSI), and I use that as my primary sanity check.