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Active shooter at NAS Pensacola

Sam I am

Average looking, not a farmer.
pilot
Contributor
Here's a Sea Story that illustrates the difficulty of arming the watch.

When I checked into my first fleet squadron on Chambers Field waaaaay, way back in the day one of my first jobs was Weapons Officer. This was also right after 9/11 so we (Weapons PO & myself) were tasked with standing up an Armed Watch Stander program for our quarterdeck. Why we were guarding H-46's with an armed watch is a whole different conversation, but the problem was finding enough people who had a weapons qual or could even become proficient enough to qualify on a weapon of any sort. We had started the program by arming the watch with 9mm, but they had to have a pistol qual. That was HARD to find and those that had the qual were standing more watch than performing their rated jobs. Side note: the first week of the program, one of our armed watch standers has to use the head. Now, taking your weapon into the head is perfectly fine, but the first class who's on watch with the armed watch stander (IT who's unqualified on the weapon) convinces her that she can't because it's "against regs" and she relinquishes her weapon to him. She goes to the head and while taking care of her business hears her weapon discharged on the quarter deck. The PO she had relinquished her weapon to had decided to screw around with the pistol even though he had no idea how to handle the weapon except what he'd seen on tv...he also claimed it was an accident. Which was complete BS as they weren't even allowed to have a round in the chamber. So the chain of events to fire the weapon was this: he accidentally unholstered the weapon, he accidently chamber a round, and then he accidently pulled the trigger. Uhmmmmm...not an accident. Fortunately, the only thing he hit was a cinder block exterior wall. We got lucky. But the fact remained: we had a qualification, proficiency, and training problem. Solution: Switch them over to shotguns. So we find a range in North Carolina that can handle all of us and we bus down damn near the entire squadron to the range, set up demonstration stations, and start running them through three firing stations to qualify on the 12 GA Remington 870. They had to fire six 3 inch 00 Buckshot rounds...2 from the shoulder standing, 2 from the shoulder kneeling, and 2 from the hip standing. I forget the range...25 yards (seems too far)? For those not familiar, a synthetic stock 870 is pretty light and 00 Buckshot in 3 in rounds kick like a mule. First one up after we demonstrate is an eager go-getter. They fire their first round and we could tell that person was really surprised, but they gather themselves and get through the next three rounds...all hits. Next comes the hip shots. We warned them: HANG ON TIGHT. The sailor fires the first hip shot and the weapon goes backwards like it was attached to a bungee cord pulling behind and clatters to the ground about 6 feet behind them. The sailor had a bad cut on their finger from the trigger/guard and might have been broken too. They failed to qualify. That individual wasn't the only one to lose control of the weapon that day and fail to qualify. Several more folks did, both male and female. And several more, both male and female, couldn't hit the target because they were flinching so badly. At the end of the day we got a lot new armed watch standers, but the fact remains qualifying personnel can be a challenge. Having proficient personnel is another huge challenge. Now put the intent of the armed watchstander into action and having to meet an armed threat head on...I dunno...It's a coin flip at best. Infact, based on the percentages I witnessed, my personal feeling is it might be less than fifty-fifty the good guy comes out on top. Just my 2 cents.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Dude. Paragraphs. :p

aeYTTvm.jpg


That said, the root cause of this buffoonery is just what @Treetop Flyer said. The Marine Corps takes the time and money to instill a culture of at least a minimum level of firearms proficiency, because it's important to the institution that every Marine is a rifleman. We don't need to have everyone be full-on naval infantry; I mean, that's why we have the Corps. But we shouldn't just throw up our hands and say "too hard," because if there's a lowest common denominator Marine watchstander who can be armed, there are plenty of Sailors who can as well. We're pulling from the same talent pool of young Americans.

The problem is convincing the powers that be to do it right and set aside time and money to train folks. Handling a firearm correctly is not rocket science, and the average servicemember can be trusted with one if they're trained right. It's very, very troubling to me that guns seem to be acquiring this aura in our society of being dangerous killing machines people can't be trusted with. They're just a piece of machinery. They do have capes and lims, and things you need to do to be responsible with them, for sure. In fact, I'd argue that some of the buffoonery you're talking about is a direct result of people not being exposed to firearms often enough. If you know what a 12 gauge can do and what it feels like, you're not going to send it flying across the range. If you know what an M9 can do, you're not going to be a dumbass and shoot the wall. The problem comes from ignorance combined with this aura of "ZOMG it's an actual gun!!"

If firearms were as randomly dangerous as some people seem to think they are, you couldn't have a 3-gun or IDPA match without it degenerating into bloodshed. Yet groups of civilians routinely have these kind of dynamic shooting competitions safely. Because they did the ORM work to make them safe. This is not an impossible thing to consider doing as a service.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
If firearms were as randomly dangerous as some people say they are, you couldn't have a 3-gun or IDPA match without it degenerating into bloodshed. Yet groups of civilians routinely have these kind of dynamic shooting competitions safely. Because they did the ORM work to make them safe. This is not an impossible thing to consider doing as a service.
These people are also not responsible for the appropriate application of deadly force.

As for arming people officially (or unofficially)... Could we do this? Of course. Is it worth the effort, resources and risk? Absolutely not.

You may now resume your masturbatory exploration of status quo policies that are not going to change. :D
 

Hotdogs

I don’t care if I hurt your feelings
pilot
These people are also not responsible for the appropriate application of deadly force.

As for arming people officially (or unofficially)... Could we do this? Of course. Is it worth the effort, resources and risk? Absolutely not.

You may now resume your masturbatory exploration of status quo policies that are not going to change. :D

You’re an inspiration to us all, Brett
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
If Big Navy wanted Joe Sailor to do small arms, I think the overall best way to do that would be to copy the Army system for taking in a very wide range of recruits, getting most of them to be fairly competent, and training the worst ones to be at least manageable.

I mean just plagiarize (but give credit) what they do in Army boot camp, or, gosh, IA training, as far as rifles and pistols.

And much like we should have simply copied the Army PT uniform in 2007, change it to say "Navy" and put our own colors on it, but instead we did a bunch of unnecessary stuff, I fear that in reality it would turn out a lot like that debacle, only more severe consequences than thousands of PT shirts that become see through when wet.
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
Here's a Sea Story that illustrates the difficulty of arming the watch.

When I checked into my first fleet squadron on Chambers Field waaaaay, way back in the day one of my first jobs was Weapons Officer. This was also right after 9/11 so we (Weapons PO & myself) were tasked with standing up an Armed Watch Stander program for our quarterdeck. Why we were guarding H-46's with an armed watch is a whole different conversation, but the problem was finding enough people who had a weapons qual or could even become proficient enough to qualify on a weapon of any sort. We had started the program by arming the watch with 9mm, but they had to have a pistol qual. That was HARD to find and those that had the qual were standing more watch than performing their rated jobs. Side note: the first week of the program, one of our armed watch standers has to use the head. Now, taking your weapon into the head is perfectly fine, but the first class who's on watch with the armed watch stander (IT who's unqualified on the weapon) convinces her that she can't because it's "against regs" and she relinquishes her weapon to him. She goes to the head and while taking care of her business hears her weapon discharged on the quarter deck. The PO she had relinquished her weapon to had decided to screw around with the pistol even though he had no idea how to handle the weapon except what he'd seen on tv...he also claimed it was an accident. Which was complete BS as they weren't even allowed to have a round in the chamber. So the chain of events to fire the weapon was this: he accidentally unholstered the weapon, he accidently chamber a round, and then he accidently pulled the trigger. Uhmmmmm...not an accident. Fortunately, the only thing he hit was a cinder block exterior wall. We got lucky. But the fact remained: we had a qualification, proficiency, and training problem. Solution: Switch them over to shotguns. So we find a range in North Carolina that can handle all of us and we bus down damn near the entire squadron to the range, set up demonstration stations, and start running them through three firing stations to qualify on the 12 GA Remington 870. They had to fire six 3 inch 00 Buckshot rounds...2 from the shoulder standing, 2 from the shoulder kneeling, and 2 from the hip standing. I forget the range...25 yards (seems too far)? For those not familiar, a synthetic stock 870 is pretty light and 00 Buckshot in 3 in rounds kick like a mule. First one up after we demonstrate is an eager go-getter. They fire their first round and we could tell that person was really surprised, but they gather themselves and get through the next three rounds...all hits. Next comes the hip shots. We warned them: HANG ON TIGHT. The sailor fires the first hip shot and the weapon goes backwards like it was attached to a bungee cord pulling behind and clatters to the ground about 6 feet behind them. The sailor had a bad cut on their finger from the trigger/guard and might have been broken too. They failed to qualify. That individual wasn't the only one to lose control of the weapon that day and fail to qualify. Several more folks did, both male and female. And several more, both male and female, couldn't hit the target because they were flinching so badly. At the end of the day we got a lot new armed watch standers, but the fact remains qualifying personnel can be a challenge. Having proficient personnel is another huge challenge. Now put the intent of the armed watchstander into action and having to meet an armed threat head on...I dunno...It's a coin flip at best. Infact, based on the percentages I witnessed, my personal feeling is it might be less than fifty-fifty the good guy comes out on top. Just my 2 cents.

your squadron was full of retards who shouldn’t have been in the Navy.

next anecdote.
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
These people are also not responsible for the appropriate application of deadly force.

As for arming people officially (or unofficially)... Could we do this? Of course. Is it worth the effort, resources and risk? Absolutely not.

You may now resume your masturbatory exploration of status quo policies that are not going to change. :D

You are a true warrior.
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
If Big Navy wanted Joe Sailor to do small arms, I think the overall best way to do that would be to copy the Army system for taking in a very wide range of recruits, getting most of them to be fairly competent, and training the worst ones to be at least manageable.

I mean just plagiarize (but give credit) what they do in Army boot camp, or, gosh, IA training, as far as rifles and pistols.

And much like we should have simply copied the Army PT uniform in 2007, change it to say "Navy" and put our own colors on it, but instead we did a bunch of unnecessary stuff, I fear that in reality it would turn out a lot like that debacle, only more severe consequences than thousands of PT shirts that become see through when wet.

So the sad thing is, most if not all recruits should already be at the "manageable" stage. If they've got a marksmanship ribbon of any kind, they should be competent to touch a loaded weapon without being unsafe. At a minimum.

Every junior crewmember on a CRUDES ship that stands a topside watch is qualified to handle a 9mm.
In other words, the cooks, electronics nerd herd, deck apes, deck apes with guns, and others all from E-3 to Khaki are required to be qualified to be on the watchbill for the daily armed sentry posts to be a contributing member of the crew.

If the shit actually hits the fan, are they going to be a Delta Recon SEAL badass? Fuck no, it's a kid with a 9mm, they'll probably be lucky to hit a guy 10 yards away. But they are entrusted to touch and load the things routinely, and to at least make sure the rounds are going in the right direction. And junior sailors are doing this just about every day deployed in overseas ports without creating diplomatic incidents.

I'm with @nittany03 on this. The lowest common denominator sailors are already out there doing this on a daily basis.

For the majority of Sailors, god help us if we're losing so badly that they have to engage an enemy with small arms.

Onboard a ship, sub, or plane that's out and deployed, sure.

That said, our units do come back ashore at some point, so at a bare ass minimum, ATFP is a mission area for every ship or submarine. No idea how NAVAIR manages it. And you can't do ATFP without at least a minimal level of small arms proficiency.

Either that, or we do what the Air Force does and just sell off all of force protection to a dedicated security organization.
 
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