A feeling of disappointment...

[Spekkio]

Marine 2ndLts spend a good portion of their training learning basic small unit level tactical concepts and becoming proficient at training their Marines. They have no actual experience at all. I would argue that taking a platoon into combat in poppy fields with no combat experience and having junior Marines lives in your hands is a but more of a leadership challenge than "getting a PQS sheet signed off..." However you don't see the blatant disrespect from SNCOs. No matter how you dice it - it's wrong.

Busybee hit it on the head. Disrespect gets crushed. End of story. Pin or no pin.

A new Ens on a sub is 3-6 months away from being able to say "I relieve you" and have operational command over his ER watchteam and 12-14 away from being able to stand OOD -- most get promoted to ltjg somewhere in there. I don't know how long it takes to qualify on surface ships. There is no operational authority afforded to a new Ens like there is to a 2lt, and if the ship were to go into battle he'd probably sit in DC central on phones, stand torpedoroom safety officer to keep him out of the way, or stand in the back of control typing the mission report and everyone O and E alike knows it. Not only is a new Ens inexperienced, but also he knows absolutely nothing about anything remotely useful for fighting the ship or conducting damage control efforts to save the ship in a casualty. That's where the disrespect comes from -- knowing that the guy who just showed up doesn't have any responsibility or useful abilities until he gets qualified to stand a watch. I agree the chief's attitude was wrong and if you put me sitting in that room now I'd have his head, but taking that approach as a nub wouldn't work out for the other ens or me.

I don't think that you and the pilots in this thread understand that Ensigns are put into a position of supposed authority knowing practically nothing about their jobs as DIVOs or operations on the ship to which they are assigned. It is that very fact that creates the perception OP asked about and is underscored when enlisted Sailors hear the way qualified JOs and above talk about new Ensigns.

This happened off watch and by a forward chief (never seen anything like that on watch unless said officer was being stubborn about wanting to do something dangerous/stupid and wrong). My understanding is that the USMC doesn't have the operational/administrative split in the COC like the Navy does.

 

[LET73]

The better analogy would be that the 2Lt shows up at COP Whatever and gets handed a PQS, and is told he can't go outside the wire until he gets all his line items signed off by the gunny. After that he can go outside the wire, but he has to go with a qualified 1Lt and can't do anything other than observe and do what the 1Lt and the gunny tell him. Meanwhile, all the qualified guys have to pick up his slack because he's not allowed to take a platoon outside the wire by himself yet, and he's nothing but a dead weight, because they're still going on patrol and teaching him what to do. In fact, by the time he qualifies, the unit will probably be just about done with deployment.

 

[BackOrdered]

LET73, Spekkio, coming from a surface background, I feel your pain.

But where I have issue is the fact that the FNG reporting will in one way or another be someone's relief or on these disrespectful SNCOs watch team. This is especially true on a sub. You would think your Wardrooms and CPO Mess would understand that and invest in their FNGs as opposed to putting them down and holding up their quals. Frankly, I don't play that BS or tolerated it in others, even with guys I don't like, as I have seen it rip a ship apart morale and climate wise. This is pretty much the test between a healthy command and a poor one and I've seen both.

 

[azguy]

I don't know what would happen in the USMC. I would hope that the O3s who also witnesses it would have NJPd him.

I honestly find it hard to believe that subs are so different from ships in that there is a pervasive culture of ENS's are subordinate to CPOs. Why would an O-3 need to witness it? Why couldn't the ENS take the guy to NJP?

...Are 2lts reliant on ssgts and gunnies to sign PQS to qualify to do their jobs while assigned to an operational unit? ....

SWOs get PQS signed off by enlisted too, keep in mind they are doing that because it is their job, not as a favor to you. There's no weakness in asking for help from the technical experts. I didn't magically 'know it all' once I got a commission/SWO pin/EOOW/TAO letter, and I have no issue asking the guys so I don't do something stupid. That doesn't mean they hold that knowledge over my head in exchange for being able to treat me like shit.

...You can call me an excuse artist all you like, but both sides of the CoC are likely to side with the CPO vs the unqualified Ens...

Again, don't know enough to even guess if this is an isolated thing or a community wide issue.

 

[Spekkio]

I honestly find it hard to believe that subs are so different from ships in that there is a pervasive culture of ENS's are subordinate to CPOs. Why would an O-3 need to witness it? Why couldn't the ENS take the guy to NJP?

Okay, this one is from me personally as a nub Ens...

YNC is zone inspection program manager. I drop the ball and realize 20 min before it's due that I haven't done it. Go to YNC, apologize for dropping the ball, and ask if he wants the quick and dirty 10 minute version or a more thorough job done later. He wants the quick and dirty version. COB thinks he hears something he doesn't (or thought it was nub Ens pelt time, couldn't tell) and blows a gasket, comes out of CPO quarters yelling about how I don't talk to his CPOs that way. I tell him settle down I'm just having a conversation. He won't have it, I tell him I'm not taking this shit from him and I walk away. He tried to order me back to CPO quarters. He follows me into the wardroom and continues on a tirade about how he doesn't take shit from Ensigns right in front of the XO. XO intervenes and continues to have a 1-way convo with me about how I don't get to tell the COB what to do, nothing said to the COB about not having tirades on officers in the middle of FCML p-way in front of enlisted Sailors of all ranks.

ENS take a CPO to NJP? ha.

SWOs get PQS signed off by enlisted too, keep in mind they are doing that because it is their job, not as a favor to you. There's no weakness in asking for help from the technical experts.

That process on a level makes you dependent on them to qualify, which makes you subservient to them. You piss them off by walking around with an "I am Officer, respect me!" attitude, and your checkouts will get a lot more detailed with more obscure lookups.

Frankly, I don't play that BS or tolerated it in others, even with guys I don't like, as I have seen it rip a ship apart morale and climate wise. This is pretty much the test between a healthy command and a poor one and I've seen both.

Yea, when I got the 'big poppa' talk from the CO before getting fish we talked about this very subject. I and the guys who arrived near me made sure not to act like the last gen of JOs who eventually thought their only job was to poop in the nubs cornflakes at every corner without helping them out.

 

[azguy]

^That sucks dude. Thank goodness for my terrible calc and physics grades that kept me out of nuke school!

 

[Steve Wilkins]

You piss them off by walking around with an "I am Officer, respect me!" attitude, and your checkouts will get a lot more detailed with more obscure lookups.

I don't think ANYONE here is even remotely suggesting that. It is possible to be an officer without being a tool at the same time. Having bars is not a license to be a little dick. So yeah, if folks walk around like that, then you are absolutely correct. They're not going to respect you.

 

[Spekkio]

The better analogy would be that the 2Lt shows up at COP Whatever and gets handed a PQS, and is told he can't go outside the wire until he gets all his line items signed off by the gunny. After that he can go outside the wire, but he has to go with a qualified 1Lt and can't do anything other than observe and do what the 1Lt and the gunny tell him. Meanwhile, all the qualified guys have to pick up his slack because he's not allowed to take a platoon outside the wire by himself yet, and he's nothing but a dead weight, because they're still going on patrol and teaching him what to do. In fact, by the time he qualifies, the unit will probably be just about done with deployment.

And then if something bad happens...

Gen: Col, what do you mean you let a newly qualified 2ndLt go outside the wire with another platoon officer? He should've at least had a Capt with him to balance out the experience! No wonder they took losses. You're relieved!
*releases P4 emphasizing CO's need to comb over watchbills and ensure the right spread of talent is assigned*

 

[BlkPny]

In Viet Nam our enlisted guys worker hard, really hard. Long hours, hot, humid conditions, shitty living conditions. All they saw of the pilots was sitting around on scramble duty, flying off and returning with no ordnance, and then they had to refuel and reload us. They just saw us grab-assing on the flight line, or flying off.

I had an empty back seat on a day flight, and the C.O. said I could take one of the line guys along, if he took his camera. From then on, we never flew with an empty seat. Once they went along with us, and saw the tracers come up, and heard the guys on the ground, SEALs, boat guys, and Army grunts, asking for CAS and seeing what we did, they could relate to the big picture. We, the pilots, had always recognized and appreciated their work, and suddenly they could see what we did. Its all a matter of communication.

Its called mutual respect.

 

[gotta_fly]

With the submarine culture described here it's no surprise that they offer a $10,000 signing bonus and still have to hold a nuke draft. Ridiculous.

I fly a large complex aicraft with a mixed crew. That jet will not fly without a flight engineer. Somehow our 3Ps (brand new pilots with no knowledge) manage to maintain a professional working relationship with senior enlisted whom they must learn from. To condone anything less is a failure of the "special trust and confidence" of your commission.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4

 

[Flash]

......COB thinks he hears something he doesn't....and blows a gasket, comes out of CPO quarters yelling about how I don't talk to his CPOs that way. I tell him settle down.......He follows me into the wardroom and continues on a tirade about how he doesn't take shit from Ensigns right in front of the XO. XO intervenes and continues to have a 1-way convo with me about how I don't get to tell the COB what to do, nothing said to the COB about not having tirades on officers in the middle of FCML p-way in front of enlisted Sailors of all ranks.

Sounds like the problem was with your boat, specifically the goat locker for doing this kind of crap and the wardroom for letting it happen. Submarine or not shenanigans like that shouldn't happen, period.

 

[zippy]

Settle down there big guy. Nobody here is saying that SWOs have the leadership market cornered. In fact, I have made many posts on these boards specifically stating that as an officer in the navy you are a naval officer first and whatever your "real" job is second. Now, officers in some communities do generally have more leadership opportunities over others and offer those opportunities earlier in a person's career. I don't think anyone here would argue that. That doesn't make those other communities better. It just means that as a general rule, those officers get exposed to leadership challenges earlier in their careers. It is what it is. All that being said, I don't think that leadership experience should be judged by the size of the group or organization you've led. It should be judged by what you are able to get accomplished and the positive impact you're able to have on the folks that work for you and those around you. I say this with having experience running small, medium, and large divisions/organizations. My division on the carrier was 120 sailors, yet I got more leadership experience and had more responsibility during my time on the cruiser. In the end, experiences and opportunities will vary. But one thing will remain constant (I hope). Naval officers are leaders first and foremost.

I'm not riled up at all. The OP stated something thats a often heard from MIDN, and recently a flight student who DOR'd, who never realized that pilots do stuff outside of flying. Just providing examples that Aviators do get leadership opportunities the same way SWOs do, based on examples I know of personally. Since DDGs are the staple of SWOdom, and sizes of divisions and department vary, it was a good benchmark to use to provide a frame of reference. Not trying to piss in your cornflakes, or say any one community community is better. Having seen a little bit of them both, they're both different but the principles are the same.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

DDGs are the staple of SWOdom

No

...or say any one community community is better. Having seen a little bit of them both, they're both different but the principles are the same.

Yes

 

[Spekkio]

With the submarine culture described here it's no surprise that they offer a $10,000 signing bonus and still have to hold a nuke draft. Ridiculous.

I fly a large complex aicraft with a mixed crew. That jet will not fly without a flight engineer. Somehow our 3Ps (brand new pilots with no knowledge) manage to maintain a professional working relationship with senior enlisted whom they must learn from. To condone anything less is a failure of the "special trust and confidence" of your commission.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4

Again, you showed up knowing the basics of how to fly that aircraft. You weren't dead weight to the command for 3-6 months and have to bug your Chief and his guys to take time out of his 12+ hour days to train you on every single aspect of the aircraft plus basic stuff like how to review the division's CSMP or put out an electrical fire before Bonefish 2 happens.

I'm not condoning the behavior, but as long as the Navy sends SWO/sub Ensigns into the meat grinder the E7 is senior to O1 mentality will be there, even for the Chiefs who show a lot more tact about it. And if you can't take a little "you're meeting my expectations for an Ens, you're just not exceeding any" ribbing in stride during checkouts when you don't know the answer to something, then you will be labelled a self entitled tool and sink. Quals mean more than rank because every guy who can't pull his own weight really hurts everyone else's QOL.

 

[Spekkio]

Sounds like the problem was with your boat, specifically the goat locker for doing this kind of crap and the wardroom for letting it happen. Submarine or not shenanigans like that shouldn't happen, period.

Bonus: He got an MSM following his tour (which is unusual). Someone thought he was doing it right.