A feeling of disappointment...

[Hotdogs]

What could he have done? What 'consequence' can an unqualified Ensign really inflict on a Chief for saying something like that? He gave him a look and a sarcastic retort, but beyond that what is he supposed to do to not 'take it?'

No, it wasn't an isolated incident of overt disrespect from CPOs even toward qualified JOs, and really came to a boiling point at times.

A DH I served with poignantly said "I'd rather suck dick in prison than be an unqualified ensign on a submarine again."

Fucking have a spine and smash it. That's what he should've done.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Pull him aside (I'd argue publicly if the comment was made publicly). Counsel him. Put it on paper. If the Ensign has no back up, that's the far greater travesty, and one we may be identifying with some Black Shoe commands.

For all the bitching that is done about Chiefs and how they can sometimes run wild, this is a perfect example of how they get that way and an excellent example of when to quash it.

What gets me is it never should have ever reached the point of needing to be quashed, that is what really burns me, what I wonder is who the fuck "mentored" that guy when he made Chief and gave him the idea this behavior was acceptable, that type of behavior embarrasses me.

What also gets me is the guys I sent to OCS and told them to get to know their Chief when they arrived at their first command, I hope to god none of them have a Chief like the one being talked about.

 

[azguy]

What could he have done? What 'consequence' can an unqualified Ensign really inflict on a Chief for saying something like that? He gave him a look and a sarcastic retort, but beyond that what is he supposed to do to not 'take it?'

No, it wasn't an isolated incident of overt disrespect from CPOs even toward qualified JOs, and really came to a boiling point at times.

A DH I served with poignantly said "I'd rather suck dick in prison than be an unqualified ensign on a submarine again."

No grown man likes being yelled at by a 22 year old, who has a legal right to do so. It makes quite an impact... But if he was still new onboard and didn't feel comfortable dealing with it personally, he should have sought out advice from his DH, XO, and CO... If most DHs heard that a CPO said that to one of their Divos they would surely deal with it swiftly, what you described is a no kidding UCMJ offense brother. Gotta hold 'em accountable... the only reason that Chief stepped out is because he'd gotten away with it before.

BTW, your quote from the DH is very telling - it sounds like your leadership was pretty weak/fvcked up. Sorry to hear that man, I think you were in the minority and I hope it didn't jade you.

 

[Gatordev]

What gets me is it never should have ever reached the point of needing to be quashed, that is what really burns me, what I wonder is who the fuck "mentored" that guy when he made Chief and gave him the idea this behavior was acceptable, that type of behavior embarrasses me.

I completely agree. Imagine if the guy made Master Chief and then ran his Mess that way.

 

[Spekkio]

I completely agree. Imagine if the guy made Master Chief and then ran his Mess that way.

He made senior chief and is probably a COB (think CMC) by now.

Fucking have a spine and smash it. That's what he should've done.

There's little he could do to 'smash it' without looking like a self-entitled Ensign throwing his rank around, which is what the Chief was baiting him to do. I highly doubt that a CPO who would say something like that would care or listen to an Ensign 'yelling' at him for such disrespect. Said action would've set back his quals, too, since I pointed out before we show up not qualified anything. It was done in public (hence how I witnessed it), so certainly he didn't fear getting 'yelled at.'

He played it off as gracefully as he could, The "I don't have to listen to non-quals" is just a culture that exists that you can't do anything about until you have a pin because no one takes you seriously otherwise.

BTW, your quote from the DH is very telling - it sounds like your leadership was pretty weak/fvcked up. Sorry to hear that man, I think you were in the minority and I hope it didn't jade you.​

I think his quote is extreme, but being an unqualified Ensign is difficult and it's certainly not something I'd like to go back to. We tend to forget the days when the only respect you got was forced military courtesies and no one took you seriously (and pilots spend this time in flight school learning to do something useful away from the fleet). You had to listen to stupid "haha Ensigns are so dumb" jokes every corner you turned from both above and below. You kind of just have to lay low, have a good self-depreciating sense of humor, qualify quickly, prove you're not completely retarded and eventually people start to respect you.​

 

[Steve Wilkins]

The idea that SWOs hold the cornerstone of leadership in the Navy is bullshit. They get put into those positions sooner, and the leash on them is generally reflective of that. Aviators hold leadership positions. An Aircraft Division Officer in a P-3 squadron has about 100 people who work for them. Thats significantly more than a SWO Divo gets their first tour (about 1/3 of the total compliment of a DDG actually). On a CVN, the largest Division is held by a Shooter and thats about 300 people (The compliment of a DDG), oh yeah and the CO of a CVN is an aviator. I don't highlight this to say that Aviators are better leaders than SWOs etc, but to provide an example of aviators being placed in some pretty large leadership positions, even though the training they go through causes them to take longer to get there.

Settle down there big guy. Nobody here is saying that SWOs have the leadership market cornered. In fact, I have made many posts on these boards specifically stating that as an officer in the navy you are a naval officer first and whatever your "real" job is second. Now, officers in some communities do generally have more leadership opportunities over others and offer those opportunities earlier in a person's career. I don't think anyone here would argue that. That doesn't make those other communities better. It just means that as a general rule, those officers get exposed to leadership challenges earlier in their careers. It is what it is. All that being said, I don't think that leadership experience should be judged by the size of the group or organization you've led. It should be judged by what you are able to get accomplished and the positive impact you're able to have on the folks that work for you and those around you. I say this with having experience running small, medium, and large divisions/organizations. My division on the carrier was 120 sailors, yet I got more leadership experience and had more responsibility during my time on the cruiser. In the end, experiences and opportunities will vary. But one thing will remain constant (I hope). Naval officers are leaders first and foremost.

 

[Hotdogs]

He made senior chief and is probably a COB (think CMC) by now.
There's little he could do to 'smash it' without looking like a self-entitled Ensign throwing his rank around, which is what the Chief was baiting him to do. I highly doubt that a CPO who would say something like that would care or listen to an Ensign 'yelling' at him for such disrespect. Said action would've set back his quals, too, since I pointed out before we show up not qualified anything. It was done in public (hence how I witnessed it), so certainly he didn't fear getting 'yelled at.'

He played it off as gracefully as he could, The "I don't have to listen to non-quals" is just a culture that exists that you can't do anything about until you have a pin because no one takes you seriously otherwise.

I think his quote is extreme, but being an unqualified Ensign is difficult and it's certainly not something I'd like to go back to. We tend to forget the days when the only respect you got was forced military courtesies and no one took you seriously (and pilots spend this time in flight school learning to do something useful away from the fleet). You had to listen to stupid "haha Ensigns are so dumb" jokes every corner you turned from both above and below. You kind of just have to lay low, have a good self-depreciating sense of humor, qualify quickly, prove you're not completely retarded and eventually people start to respect you.​

He made senior chief and is probably a COB (think CMC) by now.
There's little he could do to 'smash it' without looking like a self-entitled Ensign throwing his rank around, which is what the Chief was baiting him to do. I highly doubt that a CPO who would say something like that would care or listen to an Ensign 'yelling' at him for such disrespect. Said action would've set back his quals, too, since I pointed out before we show up not qualified anything. It was done in public (hence how I witnessed it), so certainly he didn't fear getting

This exact situation is dealt with by boot 2ndLt's in Afghanistan - It's a leadership challenge - nothing else. You don't need to yell to get a point across. You obviously underestimate the even keeled and calm approach some junior officers can take to flip the situation on the Chief or a SNCO. I have never had a reason to "yell" at a SNCO. I hope I never need one. If there is a culture issue - that speaks to your Chiefs Mess and weak leadership at the company grade level - and it's not something CPO mess should be proud about or accept for that matter. It's the type if crap that gets people killed if you ever have to go into a combat situation. Seeing that the vast majority of surface and sub communities haven't, it doesn't surprise me that command relationship between officers and senior enlisted has eroded those communities.

Spekkio, you sound like an excuse artist for this type of stuff, because "that's the way is is..." Which honestly doesn't surprise me given some of your previous posts. If you allowed it to happen as a bystander then you are a party to it as well. I have never heard of a "forced" "courtesy" either. There are customs we follow and courtesies go both ways. It's not a one way road of forced entitlement.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

What could he have done? What 'consequence' can an unqualified Ensign really inflict on a Chief for saying something like that? He gave him a look and a sarcastic retort, but beyond that what is he supposed to do to not 'take it?'

Let's change the scenario up a bit and say a staff sergeant in the Marine Corps said that to a second lieutenant. What do you think would have happened to that staff sergeant?

It was done in public (hence how I witnessed it)...

So I'm assuming you were also an unqualified nub at the time as well?

 

[BusyBee604]

You had to listen to stupid "haha Ensigns are so dumb" jokes every corner you turned from both above and below. You kind of just have to lay low, have a good self-depreciating sense of humor, qualify quickly, prove you're not completely retarded and eventually people start to respect you.

Agree with this, as a new ENS (or any JO), you can't command respect, it must be earned; however, you should NOT be a target for derision/disrespect from seniors or juniors because of inexperience. You didn't earn that either!
BzB

 

[Spekkio]

Let's change the scenario up a bit and say a staff sergeant in the Marine Corps said that to a second lieutenant. What do you think would have happened to that staff sergeant?

So I'm assuming you were also an unqualified nub at the time as well?

I don't know what would happen in the USMC. I would hope that the O3s who also witnesses it would have NJPd him.

Are 2lts reliant on ssgts and gunnies to sign PQS to qualify to do their jobs while assigned to an operational unit? Do 2lts show up to their first operational tour not knowing how to fire a rifle, navigate, or give basic orders to a platoon? Do they stay inside the wire for 3-6 months studying until the Batt CO gives him a blessing to lead a platoon? Do Navy pilots need to get checkouts from E6/E7 to fly? I think this is apples and oranges here, and already mentioned that a former gunny told me that CPOs frequently do things he'd never dream of doing as a gunny and referred to his transfer from gunny to Navy Ens as the worst demotion in the military.

Like I said, I think the guy handled it as best he could given the circumstances. You can't really stomp on someone for something like that until you've built up street cred. You can call me an excuse artist all you like, but both sides of the CoC are likely to side with the CPO vs the unqualified Ens. I went on to have a relatively successful tour which included earning the respect of said chiefs and bridging a working relationship with the goat locker that was completely broken at some point. But I needed dolphins first to do any of that, which is probably why my first CO emphasized qualifying quickly.

 

[BigRed389]

Agree with this, as a new ENS (or any JO), you can't command respect, it must be earned; however, you should NOT be a target for derision/disrespect from seniors or juniors because of inexperience. You didn't earn that either!
BzB

That right there...I think you nailed it.

Juniors see the CO/XO/DHs shit all over ENS's and they will start to think they can too. Particularly tempting for guys wearing anchors who are the right hand for the CO/XO/DH.

 

[Hotdogs]

I don't know what would happen in the USMC. I would hope that the O3s who also witnesses it would have NJPd him.

Are 2lts reliant on ssgts and gunnies to sign PQS to qualify to do their jobs while assigned to an operational unit? Do 2lts show up to their first operational tour not knowing how to fire a rifle, navigate, or give basic orders to a platoon? Do they stay inside the wire for 3-6 months studying until the Batt CO gives him a blessing to lead a platoon? Do Navy pilots need to get checkouts from E6/E7 to fly? I think this is apples and oranges here, and already mentioned that a former gunny told me that CPOs frequently do things he'd never dream of doing as a gunny.

Marine 2ndLts spend a good portion of their training learning basic small unit level tactical concepts and becoming proficient at training their Marines. They have no actual experience at all. I would argue that taking a platoon into combat in poppy fields with no combat experience and having junior Marines lives in your hands is a but more of a leadership challenge than "getting a PQS sheet signed off..." However you don't see the blatant disrespect from SNCOs. No matter how you dice it - it's wrong.

Busybee hit it on the head. Disrespect gets crushed. End of story. Pin or no pin.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

He made senior chief and is probably a COB (think CMC) by now.

Crap

 

[LET73]

Making a mistake on a submarine can put lives at risk, too. I agree that the chief was disrespectful, but I don't think there's much that ensign could have done, because that is a pervasive attitude among submariners. If you don't wear fish, they don't trust you. That's true for the nubs, it's true for the riders, and it's true for anyone else they're dealing with. If you're not assigned to the boat, you earn their trust by proving that you're competent at your job, and if you are assigned to the boat, you earn that trust by qualifying. I got pretty sick of the "dumb ensign" comments, but the fact is, new ensigns actually don't know much about the Navy or how to be officers, and their job is to learn that. There's no need for anyone to be disrespectful about it, but a new ensign actually doesn't have any real authority to "crush" a chief.

 

[BusyBee604]

To convince myself that whatever I am hearing is not true, I offer words, "Well, what you experienced are a few officers out of thousands, one ship of hundreds and one community of many." His response, "The enlisted say it is the same everywhere."

I should have organized my thoughts more clearly but I guess what I am trying to ask is, Is this true? And if so, to what degree? I understand that in aviation there isn't the direct relationship you have with enlisted as you do as a SWO, but I'm sure it is still there. Hearing this pretty much ruined my whole day. Maybe it shouldn't effect me as much as it did, but growing up and hearing all those great things about Navy....well I hear some not so great things more and more. Where did we go wrong, how do we change it, what can I do to become a better person and a prospective Naval Officer.

You are basing your disappointment on hearsay, way too much "I am told...", "I hear...", "I listen to...", and the most idiotic "The enlisted say it is the same everywhere..." (how would the enlisted know what's happenin' in other than their own "little world")?

"Where did we go wrong" We didn't, that's just your uneducated conclusion based on scuttlebutt! As far as your help in 'fixing it', the Navy has been fixing problems as they arise, for well over two centuries. As a wannabee, you should be more concentrating on your application and physical/mental prep you will need if/when selected to join us on this adventure. You may have interacted with your peers who heard "this & that" from 'bitchin' (happy) Sailors, but you aren't even in the Navy yet and this idle negative gossip has you disappointed? Recommend you jettison your premature disappointment until you have experienced Navy life. If it was really as bad as you were led to think, you would not have the strong competition for the opportunity to become a Naval Officer. Realize that if your disappointment leads you to abandon this opportunity, there are countless candidates qualified and eager to fill in that slot!

You really need to shed your disappointment in a Navy leadership you have never experienced, and concentrate on preparation for the opportunity to join that leadership.
BzB