40% of F-15, now grounded, never to return to fleet

[Lightning26]

Not that Simple. T-Birds suffered horrendous crash of lead and 3 wingmen when he had a control problem and they dutifully followed him into the ground. That was in 1982 when F-16 production was ramped up and T-38s were in shorter supply (USAF was even trying to get their early production T-38s back from Navy) so they transitioned early.

The T-38s were supposedly only used because of the fuel shortage anyways.

I understand the influence the crash had, but the Air force had already been planning to transition. It is part of their Mission to showcase the Best Aircraft.

This is from their website: "Mindful of their mission to show the Air Force's best aircraft, the Air Force selected the swept wing F-84F Thunderstreak as their second aircraft in 1955."

"In 1983, the team returned to the tradition of flying a premier fighter aircraft; trasitioning to the General Dynamics, later Lockheed Martin's F-16A Fighting Falcon."

"Remaining true to ist character to showcase the latest advancement in America's fighter technology, in 1992 the team transitioned to Lockheed Martin's advanced F-16C, the team's ninth aircraft."

Like I said, I am not guaranteeing a transition for a certain date. I can see it happening though.

 

[HackerF15E]

Not that Simple. T-Birds suffered horrendous crash of lead and 3 wingmen when he had a control problem and they dutifully followed him into the ground.

Poorly kept secret, by the way, that the crash was pilot error and the "control problem" was invented by the accident investigation board to clear the pilot.

 

[llnick2001]

That shit wouldn't fly in CAP!

 

[Uncle Fester]

Ah, yes. The persistent and elusive Meat-Stick Actuator control problem. We have that in the Navy, too.

 

[Flamedog]

I agree, but it depends on the wartime environment you are talking about. Korean war yes you are right. Vietnam yes you are right. But this war in the middle east right now is not one of those wars. I can guarantee you that right now the Blue Angels can get any part they want over any F/A-18 squadron in the fleet. If they need extra funding for other stuff they will get it. I can't say that for any other squadron. Should it be that way? probably not. But it is the way it is.

Wrong!

First of all, the Blue Angels use the oldest F/A-18's in the fleet with the oldest avionics packages. They don't even dip into the fleet's supply system for newer avionics parts, they just keep getting the old ones fixed. They use low-lot everything (A&B, not even A+) so none of their avionics works in anything except their own jets.

Second, deployed units get priority on parts. Every squadron gets a budget at the start of the fiscal year, so they all get funding. As was mentioned before, the Blues get their funding from a completely different source than the fleet squadrons. The issue is not funds, it's the priority of parts distribution. Deployed units will get priority for needed parts every time (that doesn't always mean they get it faster, but their requests get processed first). If, by chance, a deployed fleet squadron and the Blues need the exact same part it will go to the fleet and the Blues won't think twice about it. Ask any of them and they will tell you, "give the fleet what they need first". They know that what they do is slightly less important than what their shipmates are doing in "Indian Country". I have yet to meet anyone in the fleet or the Blues that said "No, don't send that to the ship, the Blues need that part first."

 

[Harrier Dude]

Wrong!

First of all, the Blue Angels use the oldest F/A-18's in the fleet with the oldest avionics packages. They don't even dip into the fleet's supply system for newer avionics parts, they just keep getting the old ones fixed. They use low-lot everything (A&B, not even A+) so none of their avionics works in anything except their own jets.

Second, deployed units get priority on parts. Every squadron gets a budget at the start of the fiscal year, so they all get funding. As was mentioned before, the Blues get their funding from a completely different source than the fleet squadrons. The issue is not funds, it's the priority of parts distribution. Deployed units will get priority for needed parts every time (that doesn't always mean they get it faster, but their requests get processed first). If, by chance, a deployed fleet squadron and the Blues need the exact same part it will go to the fleet and the Blues won't think twice about it. Ask any of them and they will tell you, "give the fleet what they need first". They know that what they do is slightly less important than what their shipmates are doing in "Indian Country". I have yet to meet anyone in the fleet or the Blues that said "No, don't send that to the ship, the Blues need that part first."

There is s slight differentiation in terms needed here. "Fleet units" and "Deployed Units" are not one in the same. All deployed units are in the fleet, but not all fleet units are deployed.

When there is a part needed by the Blues, they normally get it over a fleet unit, but not in front of a deployed unit. I would be willing to bet that even that has happenned before, though I can't prove it.

 

[Flamedog]

There is s slight differentiation in terms needed here. "Fleet units" and "Deployed Units" are not one in the same. All deployed units are in the fleet, but not all fleet units are deployed.

I understand and completely agree with you. I only combined them because someone said that the Blues would take priority over ANY fleet squadron, which includes deployed units. I was trying to use a deployed fleet squadron as an example of a unit that would take priority over the Blues. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

When there is a part needed by the Blues, they normally get it over a fleet unit, but not in front of a deployed unit. I would be willing to bet that even that has happenned before, though I can't prove it.

At the shore IMA, the Blues often take priority in having their parts fixed first but that is because their gear is R/R (Repair and Return). If they send us a HUD, they don't get another one from our shelf. We fix the one they send us and send it back to them. If ANY fleet squadron orders a HUD, they get another one off our shelf, we fix the one they sent in, and return it to the shelf. If we don't have any on the shelf when the fleet squadron orders it, the part is EXREP and it takes priority over everyone else, including the Blues. So it isn't so much the Blues are more important.

Yes, the Blues have got parts in front of deployed units, I've seen it. The system isn't supposed to allow it, but certain people can easily change priorities or intercept parts in the system. It's getting even more complicated with the incorportation of AIRSPEED into the equation too.

 

[Harrier Dude]

I understand what you're saying. As a former Maintenance Officer (and one that did NOT have to really compete w/ the Blues for parts for the most part), I have decent knowledges on the supply system, though not as much as you, being an IMA maint/supply guy.

All I'm saying is that the Blues don't spend 1% of the time AWOP for some simple gasket/clamp/sealant that the rest of us do, deployed or not. The same probably goes for motors, but I don't compete with them for that, so I can only guess.

This is all not necessarily a bad thing, as some would suggest. Like it or not, the Blues have an important mission. If they miss shows, or worse yet, put on a shitty/incomplete one because of down jets, they look bad. When they look bad, recruiting and political exposure suffers. When that happens, the money slows down. When the money slows down, we all suffer. No bucks, no Buck Rogers.

I know this isn't what the warfighters want to hear, because, frankly, this is part of the seemier political side of what we do. That doesn't make it any less real, though.

 

[Lightning26]

Wrong!

First of all, the Blue Angels use the oldest F/A-18's in the fleet with the oldest avionics packages. They don't even dip into the fleet's supply system for newer avionics parts, they just keep getting the old ones fixed. They use low-lot everything (A&B, not even A+) so none of their avionics works in anything except their own jets.
"

I just want to ensure you that I was in no way implying that anyone in the Blues thinks they should get parts over a deployed squadron. They know their role is less important than dropping bombs on target and they proudly represent those who are doing it.

In your second post you say you have seen it yourself, so how am I wrong?
Their budget is just like a normal squadron for parts, the other funding is for special uniforms and stuff in that nature.

The Blues do have a couple of Charlie models now in mod's and testing. So you may need to check your sources. I understand what you are saying about avionics parts. I was talking in the lines of engine, airframe parts.

 

[Lightning26]

I understand and completely agree with you. I only combined them because someone said that the Blues would take priority over ANY fleet squadron, which includes deployed units. I was trying to use a deployed fleet squadron as an example of a unit that would take priority over the Blues. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying, if the Blues felt their mission required the part more than anyone else, they would get it.

I can give you a few examples where the wouldn't have priority:

WWII, Korean War, Vietnam, If they needed the same O-ring or gasket that certain P-3 squdrons, EA6B's or any other special mission A/C that don't have backups would definitely get priority.

Here is a example where I think they would get priority, Say they are in the Netherlands, or any major Fleet Week show site. They have two jets down that need the same O-ring that a deployed F/A-18 squdron needs for one of their jets to be up.

I ask you, what do you think is more important for the country? To have the Blue Angels look stupid in a foreign country or in front of millions of spectators? Or to have a extra spare jet in the fleet?

and don't get me started on all of the y coded Huds and DDIs the Blues have sent back

 

[Lightning26]

All I'm saying is that the Blues don't spend 1% of the time AWOP for some simple gasket/clamp/sealant that the rest of us do, deployed or not. The same probably goes for motors, but I don't compete with them for that, so I can only guess.

I Agree with your observation.

 

[bunk22]

Poorly kept secret, by the way, that the crash was pilot error and the "control problem" was invented by the accident investigation board to clear the pilot.

Proof.....ie link to proof.

 

[Flamedog]

I think you misunderstood what I was saying, if the Blues felt their mission required the part more than anyone else, they would get it.

Maybe, but that I have not seen in 6 years of working at an IMA. An EXREP for a fleet squadron ALWAYS takes priority where I work and that includes priority over Blue Angels.

I can give you a few examples where the wouldn't have priority:

WWII, Korean War, Vietnam, If they needed the same O-ring or gasket that certain P-3 squdrons, EA6B's or any other special mission A/C that don't have backups would definitely get priority.

I don't need an example of when the Blues wouldn't get priority, I see it all the time. I gave a few examples in my previous posts. Don't think I'm trying to take anything away from the importance of what the Blues do, I know it's an important mission, just not as important as defending our Nation.

Here is a example where I think they would get priority, Say they are in the Netherlands, or any major Fleet Week show site. They have two jets down that need the same O-ring that a deployed F/A-18 squdron needs for one of their jets to be up.

I ask you, what do you think is more important for the country? To have the Blue Angels look stupid in a foreign country or in front of millions of spectators? Or to have a extra spare jet in the fleet?

and don't get me started on all of the y coded Huds and DDIs the Blues have sent back

I can see the priority in your example. A deployed squadron has more jets to chose from and usually one ends up being a hangar queen for most of the cruise/deployment anyway so yes, the Blues would probably get their part first. Now look at the the same example from the opposite side; deployed jets unable to carry out a sortie because of an EXREP part and the Blue Angels without the same part and can't perform at an airshow. Who gets the part? When it all boils down to National Defense vs. Airshow, I think the first takes priority.

So to answer your question: Yes, I would rather look stupid and protect my country than look good at the airshow while our Marines and Soldiers die because they couldn't get the air support they needed. I know that 1 down jet isn't going to stop a sortie, but neither is 1 down Angel. It doesn't have to be Korea or Vietnam or WWII for the fleet to get priority.

In the Navy supply system, when a deployed unit (i.e. the Ship's IMA) orders a part, the system automatically gives it the highest priority. Next comes non-deployed EXREP and R/R (which includes Blue Angels) and then Sup-O assets (for the rest of the fleet, etc) There are certain people that can change priority codes later if the see fit. I've seen it done for the shore IMA, home squadron, deployed squadron, and the Blues as seen necessary by maintenance control and supply.

Now I know that the Blues often get parts faster than other, it's the nature of their business but the bottom line is the fleet will get priority when it counts.

I've seen 2 Y-codes from the Blues in my shop in the last 2 years, and we work on the HUD, DDI, HI, CSC, MSDR, MSDC, SDC, and several others. I don't know who you're sending them all back to but it's not where I am.

What I DO see, now that you got ME started, is all the improperly packaged HUDs, DDIs, and HIs that come in with broken combiners, CRTs, knobs, and everything else that I have to write Material Discrepancy Reports on every time we get a shipment from the Blue Angels. On a similar note, I have a question for any Blues tech. Is it possible to remove the mag tape from the MSDR without breaking the anti-vibration tray? We D-Act. an awful lot of MSDRs for that. The tray is one of those things that even the Blue Angels can't get. Funny thing is, all the broken trays come from them.

 

[SnipeDude]

Going back to the F-15 thing...

According to Navy Fact File, a Super Hornet is only $57 million. I say the Pentagon should just buy us some more Rhinos and let us take over that USAF mission too (like Prowlers and TACAMO)!

 

[Lightning26]

Maybe, but that I have not seen in 6 years of working at an IMA. An EXREP for a fleet squadron ALWAYS takes priority where I work and that includes priority over Blue Angels.

I don't need an example of when the Blues wouldn't get priority, I see it all the time. I gave a few examples in my previous posts. Don't think I'm trying to take anything away from the importance of what the Blues do, I know it's an important mission, just not as important as defending our Nation.

I never said that the Blues would get a part over a Jet that needs it to Defend Our Nation. The Blues wouldn't even try to get it. If that was the case. But I hardly ever see that being the case. The reason you don't hardly ever see the Blues trump another squadron is because the Blues have their own supply system practically. So most of their avionics parts are not a priority to get back.

Like HarrierDude said, the blues are hardly ever AWP. (which is true) So that has to mean something.

It is kinda stupid to be debating this subject anyways because there is always going to be a scenario where one side is right and the other is wrong.

You would have to talk to a Avionics guy about those parts

So congrats on picking up SNA, hopefully you will get jets and be able to fly with the Blues one day.

PS. I'm sorry for getting this thread off subject.