40% of F-15, now grounded, never to return to fleet

[Lightning26]

You need to do a bit more research as your F-15E costs are pretty exaggerated. Make sure you use same source and proper year and configuration (ie flyaway cost or something else) before comparing.

I did some more research and the best I can come up is that the F15E was estimated at 43 million in 1998. The last numbers for the Super Hornet is estimated at 58 million. I couldn't find a date. So to me the F15E is a superior jet to the Super. Then when you factor in the newest version the F15K is estimated at a 100 million. I find it hard to believe Boeing could charge the Air Force much less if they want the new avionics and engines. So the Best I could estimate is somewhere between 70-90 million for a new 2009 F15? Has anyone heard of Boeing giving a price range to the Air Force in case they wanted more?

Boeing ramping up their Raptor program; Boeing is a sub to LMCO so it's their Raptor program

I did mess up and didn't include Lockheed in that statement. I tried to explain why in my last post. But yeah if anyone asks who makes the Raptor I would say Lockheed Martin. Does anyone know how the partnership works? Since they designed it together. I know Boeing supplies the wings, aft fuselage, and integrates and test avionics. That doesn't seem small to me.

waste what they call a "national asset" as a flight demonstration aircraft.

You are right, I should have said I was joking in my first post. I did say it in my second post that I was joking and that it would probably be the JSF. If the Raptor ever did make the show circuit, it would probably be the Raptor East, and West teams. Replacing the Viper teams. (I said IF, I am not saying they will) They are a awesome site to watch, the best I have ever seen.

You might be missing how funding works with services by this statement.

You are right, I don't know much about the funding. I was more talking the lines of personal experience. Like how much better the Air Force's bases and facilities, and A/C are. But I do know that the Navy has to spend a lot of money on ships and plus their Jets need to land on the carrier so I understand why. I just wish we had more money (as I am sure everyone does)

 

[HeyJoe]

I did mess up and didn't include Lockheed in that statement. I tried to explain why in my last post. But yeah if anyone asks who makes the Raptor I would say Lockheed Martin. Does anyone know how the partnership works? Since they designed it together. I know Boeing supplies the wings, aft fuselage, and integrates and test avionics. That doesn't seem small to me.

As the 'Big Boys' have consolidated and gobbled up many other aerospace entities, it has resulted in seemingly strange bedfellows, but not "partnerships". Being a partner has a specific meaning. Boeing is a subcontractor like Northrop Grumman for the radar and associated avionics and Pratt&Whitney for the engines. Pull back a minute and consider two factors:

1. Some technology and expertise only comes from one of a very few companies so the "prime contractor" has to sometimes work with a competitor on a program. There are firewalls in place and Associate Contractor Agreements (ACA) or Proprietary Infomation Exchange Agreements (PIEA) that get signed on both sides to protect competitive edge and Intellectual Property. All the specific expertise is typically in business units that may have their own culture tracing back to their prior company, but nevertheless, they are under the gun to bring in income and if it comes from a competitor like Lockheed after they lost the competition (ie ATF or JSF), then that's better than nothing.

2. So why would Lockheed or Boeing want to use a competitor even if there were other options? Answer: Congressional support. I got to go see the F-22 at Marietta when there were only two in existance (to work AIM-9X interoperability issues). In the hangar with the aircraft were display tables with major components/pictures arrayed on them with signs as to which state produced the parts. This trend became very important in Peace Dividend days so companies put a senior guy (up to VP) in charge of making sure a platform had parts made in every state. If it was an international program (like F-16 or JSF), the stakes were even higher and foreign offsets and transfer of technology comes into play (note: BAE makes a big part of JSF). So having a major part of the aircraft made by Boeing means the Washington State and Missouri power brokers are not pitted against the Texas and Georgia crowd. Note: the back half of the F/A-18 comes from Northrop Grumman (nice of Boeing since Northrop originaly designed the legacy F-17 that the F/A-18 was based on).

Answer your question?

 

[Flamedog]

That's not entirely true. You may have just been shortening it for brevity's sake, but different deployed units have different priorities. Also, different non-deployed fleet units have different priorities. I'm guessing that the Blues' FAD is pretty high, so they stuff happens pretty quick for them, where ever they are.

We had the strange position of being between two FADs in HI. You could deploy and actually go down a FAD because the homeguard squadron was considered in a pseudo-forward-deployed status. When you got to the boat, their FAD was lower by one. Kind of silly, and it would correct once back in certain theatres (like the hot and sandy ones).

You're right Gatordev. I was just trying to keep it short and sweet. I don't know all the ins and outs of the supply system but I have done a lot of work with ASD at my command, probably too much since I'm a maintainer and not an SK. I also know that different commands do things different. What they do at my command may not be what another command is doing, etc. I'm just going on what my experience has been, mainly with the civilians in supply that can make some serious magic happen.

You girls forget one thing that Blues have in spades that fleet squadrons don't:

They have the name of a defense contractor painted on the side of their jets. That defense contractor (who happens to also be a part supplier) works pretty hard to make sure that the Jets that say "Boeing" on the side are FMC.

Never underestimate the power of a good tech rep.

Excellent point lady. Tech Reps can make a big difference. I have a Boeing Tech Rep in my shop and I've had many dealings with Mr. Johnson from the Blues. Again, MAGIC!

 

[Lightning26]

Answer your question?

Yes, I am sure it is even more complicated. Thanks for dumbing it down for me.

 

[VFA-203 Forever]

I did some more research and the best I can come up is that the F15E was estimated at 43 million in 1998. The last numbers for the Super Hornet is estimated at 58 million. I couldn't find a date. So to me the F15E is a superior jet to the Super. Then when you factor in the newest version the F15K is estimated at a 100 million. I find it hard to believe Boeing could charge the Air Force much less if they want the new avionics and engines. So the Best I could estimate is somewhere between 70-90 million for a new 2009 F15? Has anyone heard of Boeing giving a price range to the Air Force in case they wanted more?




I did mess up and didn't include Lockheed in that statement. I tried to explain why in my last post. But yeah if anyone asks who makes the Raptor I would say Lockheed Martin. Does anyone know how the partnership works? Since they designed it together. I know Boeing supplies the wings, aft fuselage, and integrates and test avionics. That doesn't seem small to me.

I highly doubt the USAF is going to buy more Strikes to replace the C/D's because the F-15E is a ground attack aircraft, Not a dogfighter like the A-D Series. Personally, I think this is more of a ploy to get more Raptors than the airframes being too old (I'm sure they are becoming rundown but I don't think it's as serious as it's being made out to be).

And the Boeing partnership isn't really all that large. I'd say it's an 80/20-90/10 thing. You'd thing there'd be more there considering that's a considerable portion of the jet made by the Boeing Boys but apparently not. You almost never hear mention of them when the Raptor is brought up or even local (Here in Marietta).

As for the demo teams, The Raptor (If there even will be a West Coast Demo Team at HO) is replacing the F-15C East/West Teams, Not the F-16 East/West if I understand what you're saying exactly.

 

[Marco]

Our boys been flying for a week now, getting re-qualed. Great feeling to be back doing meaningful work on the line.

 

[Lightning26]

as for the demo teams, The Raptor (If there even will be a West Coast Demo Team at HO) is replacing the F-15C East/West Teams, Not the F-16 East/West if I understand what you're saying exactly.

Good call, according to this link
http://www.langley.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123034445
they have already transitioned to the Raptor on the East coast last year. I have never seen the F15 or Raptor at an air show as a team like I have the Viper and A-10 teams with narration and music. Thanks for the good info.

 

[Single Seat]

whoa whoa, I totally saw Owen Wilson almost outfly a missile with a rhino... those bad guys just got lucky.

Owen Wilson didn't out fly anything. He also didn't know his missile-D bold face.

Flame away.

 

[Brett327]

^^ At least Owen Wilson isn't a douche-bag. Have you even been in the fleet long enough to speak in your own readyroom?

Brett

 

[Gatordev]

You're right Gatordev. I was just trying to keep it short and sweet. I don't know all the ins and outs of the supply system but I have done a lot of work with ASD at my command, probably too much since I'm a maintainer and not an SK. I also know that different commands do things different. What they do at my command may not be what another command is doing, etc. I'm just going on what my experience has been, mainly with the civilians in supply that can make some serious magic happen.

I didn't mean "different priorities" as in a command does something different than another, I was referring to the FADs (which I can't remember what that means) which give the commands different "rankings" for who gets what first.

Regardless, I'm quibbling, but just clarifying what I wrote.

 

[raptor10]

He also didn't know his missile-D bold face.

Flame away.

Chaff, we don' need no stinkin chaff! Flares and fuel tanks work equally well as countermeasures to radar guided missiles!

 

[VFA-203 Forever]

Good call, according to this link
http://www.langley.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123034445
they have already transitioned to the Raptor on the East coast last year. I have never seen the F15 or Raptor at an air show as a team like I have the Viper and A-10 teams with narration and music. Thanks for the good info.

It's pretty impressive. The F-15C East stood down in '06. F-15C West stands down this year. Only saw it once, up at NTU last September and was blown away. This is the first "official" year of the Raptor Demo, But they had it at select locations last season.

Almost as good as the Rhino Demo...But not quite

 

[Single Seat]

Oh come on Brett, don't take it so personally! And yes.

 

[Brett327]

Oh come on Brett, don't take it so personally! And yes.

I don't take anything personally from a fighter guy who doesn't have his section lead.

Brett

 

[Single Seat]

Touche'