Flight Pay Changes

[insanebikerboy]

Ah, the perpetual "which is better"...

If you love your job in the Navy, or flying for the airlines, or whatever job, and stick around to continue doing it, that's pretty smart.

If you hate your job in the Navy, or flying for the airlines, or whatever job, and stick around to continue doing it, you're a fucking idiot and you need your head examined.

 

[ea6bflyr]

NAVADMIN 065/18 is out. It's official.

 

[xj220]

NAVADMIN 065/18 is out. It's official.

Me celebrating:

 

[smoke_screen]

Caveat: I’m longer in the navy and also not an airline pilot.

The conviction in general “grass is greener” seems somewhat contrary to the advice I got from most airline pilots when looking at post-navy careers, which is that it’s a cyclical industry where pilot unions have varying amounts of leverage. True, this wasn’t that far removed from the bankruptcy era, but, to not admit that you are a oil price spike away or geopolitical event from different dynamics might be short sighted.

As anyone in 2009 (who was making a stable 100k in their late 20s from the navy), can tell you, the comfort/stability of the navy that everyone talks about was a real thing.

If there ever were a window to revel in good timing, this is it. However, as a bystander, for me the grass seems evenly green in the big picture... if the industry is still booming in 10y, opportunities will be right there for the bonus recipients in question, along with a retirement, and a decade well spent in a meaningful profession.

 

[Brett327]

Heretic!

 

[Deleted member 24525]

I think this is a fairly obvious sentiment, and could apply to leaving the Navy for ANY job sector.
Yeah the military has job security, however, the day to day quality of life of the airline gig far exceeds anything the Navy.

Yeah there is a comfort in knowing that how shitty the economy gets, you will be fine. But there's also a comfort in knowing I don't have to leave my family for a year to possibly die in a fucking war zone.

Lastly, my advice to future wannabes is " don't be a dumbass". Save your money, put yourself in a strong financial position when you leave the Navy, and keep socking way those funds for when a strike or furlough does occur.
And... the 12-16% 401k contribution my union negotiated for me helps ease some of that.

 

[HAL Pilot]

What you fail to account for in your 10 years is the higher income you will earn at a major airline, the better quality of life and seniority.

The seniority is especially key as in if at the 13 or 15 year mark from now there is a downturn, junior guys hit the streets while senior guys stay employed. Right now is probably the closest thing to a furlough proof continued hiring market you’ll see.

So get into The Show now, make more money in the next 10 years overall, gain seniority and maybe only have a reserve retirement.... or..... have your active duty retirement, make less money overall for the next 10 years, have a couple years at an airline and hope there is no downturn that puts you in the street living on only your active duty retirement since you’re the junior guy.

 

[smoke_screen]

These are very reasonable approaches of course. And it’s your life not mine so you are likely more discerning. But these arguments may ignore the lessons of history and exaggerate the amount of actual raw talent required to pilot a modern day commercial airline. I remember an equal sort of pious footing in 08 09 on the Navy side about the morons who got out into commercial airlines (most of whom doing quite well now). The point being, in every economy you pay a premium for certainty, and, while the extortion power of the unions is currently beneficial, as are every other tailwind like oil prices, consumer spending, competitive landscape, geopolitics, consumer attitudes toward more capable inhuman technology, and demographics, you are being compensated for the risk with more current pay, and if I had to guess on experience, the after tax all-in differential isn’t jaw dropping. Labor markets are efficient and truly great deals (mismatch between pay and skill) only last so long, say nothing of missing weekends and holidays and the health effects of commercial pilot schedules.

 

[Deleted member 24525]

These are very reasonable approaches of course. And it’s your life not mine so you are likely more discerning. But these arguments may ignore the lessons of history and exaggerate the amount of actual raw talent required to pilot a modern day commercial airline. I remember an equal sort of pious footing in 08 09 on the Navy side about the morons who got out into commercial airlines (most of whom doing quite well now). The point being, in every economy you pay a premium for certainty, and, while the extortion power of the unions is currently beneficial, as are every other tailwind like oil prices, consumer spending, competitive landscape, geopolitics, consumer attitudes toward more capable inhuman technology, and demographics, you are being compensated for the risk with more current pay, and if I had to guess on experience, the after tax all-in differential isn’t jaw dropping. Labor markets are efficient and truly great deals (mismatch between pay and skill) only last so long, say nothing of missing weekends and holidays and the health effects of commercial pilot schedules.

"extortion power of the unions"???? is this guy for real?
"mismatch between pay and skill" WTF are you talking about?

Jesus dude, read a book that isn't backed by the Koch brothers.

 

[smoke_screen]

"extortion power of the unions"???? is this guy for real?
"mismatch between pay and skill" WTF are you talking about?

Jesus dude, read a book that isn't backed by the Koch brothers.

You’re right to call me out; Poor choice of words to describe the leverage of strong labor unions but your reaction does promote my point that political factors can theoretically impact the golden goose.

I have the advantage of knowing personally and seeing many current commercial pilots at work with many data points, and in general, let’s be honest, many are nice guys and gals, but not impressive or talented enough to command $200k anywhere else on planet earth. That should cause a little bit of pause if you are being honest with yourself.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Pilots have a skill that commands the money. They are being paid for that skill, not some other nebulous skill they don’t have. Part of that skill is keeping 200-300 people per flight safe. The skill and decision making that goes into that has commanded that amount of money (and more - $350,000 for a wide body Captain).

What should cause you pause is the rather pompous option you are expressing. Just because you don’t value piloting skills does mean that others don’t or that the industry doesn’t. I personally think I’m worth every penny they pay me - more actually.

 

[smoke_screen]

You’re right to call me out; Poor choice of words to describe the leverage of strong labor unions but your reaction does promote my point that political factors can theoretically impact the golden goose.

I have the advantage of knowing personally and seeing many current commercial pilots at work with many data points, and in general, let’s be honest, many are nice guys and gals, but not impressive or talented enough to command $200k anywhere else on planet earth. That should cause a little bit of pause if you are being honest with yourself.

And I also don’t have a strong or serious opinion on labor unions; at first blush they seem antiquated, but that’s a simpleton’s view. In sincerity, I’d be open to reading anything you suggest about how they promote a healthy and functional economy.

 

[Deleted member 24525]

And I also don’t have a strong or serious opinion on labor unions; at first blush they seem antiquated, but that’s a simpleton’s view. In sincerity, I’d be open to reading anything you suggest about how they promote a healthy and functional economy.

I would say the exploitation comes from the corporations who outsource their labor to foreign countries… Such as whirlpool, Magnavox, Phillips… Go to Monterey, Mexico, and you will see the logos of formerly proud American corporations on every building.

We outsource our labor to Mexico, then claim those Mexicans are coming North to steal American jobs...the reality is those jobs were stolen years ago by the corporations who moved their plants South.


Read Hard Landing-pay special attention to the sections about Frank Lorenzo.
THAT’S why unions are not antiquated.

 

[smoke_screen]

Pilots have a skill that commands the money. They are being paid for that skill, not some other nebulous skill they don’t have. Part of that skill is keeping 200-300 people per flight safe. The skill and decision making that goes into that has commanded that amount of money (and more - $350,000 for a wide body Captain).

What should cause you pause is the rather pompous option you are expressing. Just because you don’t value piloting skills does mean that others don’t or that the industry doesn’t. I personally think I’m worth every penny they pay me - more actually.

Sorry to be pompous. Not trying to be a prick. More an honest conversation and saying openly what I see. I do have the credibility of a few thousand hours and a decade in ready rooms.

Not asking this as an incendiary question: You say that the industry values it at 350k+... do they really, or more the fear of a walkout?

Hey it’s a great deal. Right now: I’m suggesting it made me nervous about depending on the unions’ leverage when I got out because the market price seems lower **to me** based on the low caliber of people I saw accepted into the industry (many great ones as well) and my personal read on the decision making skills you describe.

 

[FrankTheTank]

Smoke Screen... Expert of an industry that he ain’t even a part of..

Tell more about how bad the Airlines are.. All the while I sit here on my month off thanks to 10 days of my 29 days of vacation. I can’t tell you what 10 years can cost you but I can tell you what 14 years can cost you. $315,042.83. Gross pay for 2017. 196 hours 35 mins block CY17