But it's not fucked up - that's my point. The guy probably had a decent record. Even child rapists can be good at their job.
Everyone was engaged in pearl-clutching, which I disdain. I'll leave it at that.
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DH Opportunity
- Thread starter robav8r
- Start date
Everyone was engaged in pearl-clutching, which I disdain. I'll leave it at that.
IF THE NAVY WAS IN CHARGE OF OUR MESSAGE TRAFFIC INFRASTRUCTURE, I BET MESSAGES AND ORDERS WOULD STILL BE IN ALL CAPS.
Oh wait...
And this article was from 2013 proclaiming the end of it years ago.:
U.S. Navy adjusts to the times; ditches its ALL CAPS message format | CNN
Well, it seems the U.S. Navy finally got the memo: DON'T USE ALL CAPS! IT'S RUDE!
TBH, this is the tip of the iceberg with things the Navy does stupidly with advancement. EPs don't promote early, MPs usually don't promote, and Ps are typically the last people you want advancing. Boards full of people choose who promotes based on a 60 second review of a decade's worth of work, without even knowing the people they are voting on - and that process is usually a black box. We encourage diversity in officers...as long as you all have the same career progression. Sometimes the worst people will get promoted and the best will get left behind because their timing is +/-3 months from where it should be. PERS can't do math when it comes to AZ/IZ/BZ percentages. The list is endless...
So you can summarily dismiss them?
I thought the Navy was already getting rid of YGs and AZ/IZ/BZ and revamping the fitrep system and there isn’t a pilot shortage except there aren’t enough DHs for single seat squadrons and blah blah blah. Check must be in the mail (still).
I thought the Navy was already getting rid of YGs and AZ/IZ/BZ and revamping the fitrep system and there isn’t a pilot shortage except there aren’t enough DHs for single seat squadrons and blah blah blah. Check must be in the mail (still).
Well since you asked...
1. Stop using combined ordinal and ratio scales on FITREPs in such a way that makes the first nonsensical and the second irrelevant. Since the words have no meaning anymore, get rid of them. Create a system where reporting seniors are required to apply a numerical value to an individual's qualities that doesn't reset every time the reporting senior changes or the individual promotes. This should create a system where people with consistently outstanding performance traits (cough...sustained superior performance buzzword...cough) are easily identified over time and between commands instead of a world where everyone's performance "resets" every year and your high-water is more based on timing/peer group than it is actual performance. This could also have the added advantage of highlighting when someone is good relative to a shitty peer group, or just good in their own right.
2. Have promotion decisions made by the reporting senior at the time of promotion. The Navy will never scrap the time in grade requirements for promoting, so have the current Skipper make the decision at the person's 2/4/10 etc. year service mark for whether they are worthy of promotion. They will have the continuum of historical fitreps like the board does now, but also the benefit of personally observing an individual's performance and the opinion of the individual's superiors/peers to inform their decision. That, and for at least some period of time the reporting senior is going to have to live with the consequences of the decision. Oh and this also means that officers in other designators, who admittedly don't understand how other communities do things, won't have a say in your promotion. Because let's face it, nowhere else in the real world do people who don't know you, don't know what you do, and don't ever have to work with you get a say in your career trajectory.
3. By decentralizing the promotion mechanism, you should also be decreasing the emphasis on the "golden path", because you don't know what commands your future reporting senior will be biased towards based on their own career history. Ideally there is no bias, but that's human nature. At least this way, you don't know that every single one of your Skippers was a kool-aid swigging FRS instructor turned shooter before he/she sold their soul as a DH on their way to a joint staff gig in advance. You definitely won't have jabroni detailers standing on stage at Tailhook/MPA/Symposium/Whatever-the-circle-jerk-will-be-called-in-ten-years telling you that you need "X,Y,Z in that order to make command; and if you don't want to be CNO then gfy..."
4. Get rid of year groups and just use commissioning anniversaries as the time gates for promotion. It makes no sense to say that you are going to compete against people with "similar timing", but due to factors beyond your control you could be advanced into a screen group with people who have 12+ months advantage to you when it comes to career opportunities. If everyone gets a look at the same point in their career, everyone should have had the same opportunity to be awesome/average/shitty. No more getting shafted because of creep.
5. Get rid of detailers...or at least send them all to a basic algebra course before they put together community briefs. Here is the gist - percentage of eligible individuals selected is (AZ selected + IZ selected)/(total AZ + total IZ). This isn't common core, even a Naval Academy grad can see that (AZ selected + IZ selected)/(total IZ) is bullshit math. Stop being dishonest, it only makes the rest of the shady shit that PERS does look even worse.
I'm sure you'll take a dump on all of these, but remember, you did solicit them in the first place...
First off - excellent! I'm glad you're engaged and actually thinking through some of this.
1. Lots of good point here, most of which is being covered in the FITREP and Eval system overhaul due to hit the fleet in about a year. I won't belabor the details, as it has been discussed in other threads. I do encourage everyone to talk with their COs about the new system
2. Interesting concept, but I think this already happens, for all practical purposes, under the current system. The RS that writes the FITREP just prior to the board essentially has veto power in how that FITREP is written. If I understand your point, I think this answers the mail.
3. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by decentralizing promotion. Since the golden path is defined by and briefed to the board by community leadership (I.E., what the community values), I'm not sure how you would decrease its role in the selection process. Please elaborate.
4. This too is currently being addressed in the overhaul, with the goal of moving to a more milestone based approach.
5. I get the frustration with detailers, and my sense is that a lot of that is community dependent. In mine (most TACAIR?), detailers and placement folks are due course community jobs, and they're usually good dudes. I acknowledge that that's not the case for everyone. FWIW, I don't think they're the ones creating the post-board statistics.
So, good discussion, from where I sit. Seems to me that a lot of your thinking WRT the FITREP and promotion system are things that PERS is already in the process of implementing. You may have a bright future in this business after all!
Have you considered transitioning to VAQ? I honestly think you'd be more professionally satisfied here with us.
1. Lots of good point here, most of which is being covered in the FITREP and Eval system overhaul due to hit the fleet in about a year. I won't belabor the details, as it has been discussed in other threads. I do encourage everyone to talk with their COs about the new system
2. Interesting concept, but I think this already happens, for all practical purposes, under the current system. The RS that writes the FITREP just prior to the board essentially has veto power in how that FITREP is written. If I understand your point, I think this answers the mail.
3. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by decentralizing promotion. Since the golden path is defined by and briefed to the board by community leadership (I.E., what the community values), I'm not sure how you would decrease its role in the selection process. Please elaborate.
4. This too is currently being addressed in the overhaul, with the goal of moving to a more milestone based approach.
5. I get the frustration with detailers, and my sense is that a lot of that is community dependent. In mine (most TACAIR?), detailers and placement folks are due course community jobs, and they're usually good dudes. I acknowledge that that's not the case for everyone. FWIW, I don't think they're the ones creating the post-board statistics.
So, good discussion, from where I sit. Seems to me that a lot of your thinking WRT the FITREP and promotion system are things that PERS is already in the process of implementing. You may have a bright future in this business after all!
Have you considered transitioning to VAQ? I honestly think you'd be more professionally satisfied here with us. 
Thanks. My bad.
Brett,
Respectfully sir, I'm sure you have more SA to what is going on with the future FITREP system than I do, but I would sincerely be surprised if it rolls out to the fleet in the next year. Since I've been in the VT squadron I'm in, over two years ago PERS came and talked about this new system and mentioned it'd be rolled out within a year. Have not heard a word about it since.
Since I've been there I was told a pretty comprehensive syllabus change which would actually be good in a lot of ways for a lot of the students (not perfect, but better) would be coming very soon (within six months or so). This was three years ago, and it is still coming very soon.
Respectfully sir, I'm sure you have more SA to what is going on with the future FITREP system than I do, but I would sincerely be surprised if it rolls out to the fleet in the next year. Since I've been in the VT squadron I'm in, over two years ago PERS came and talked about this new system and mentioned it'd be rolled out within a year. Have not heard a word about it since.
Since I've been there I was told a pretty comprehensive syllabus change which would actually be good in a lot of ways for a lot of the students (not perfect, but better) would be coming very soon (within six months or so). This was three years ago, and it is still coming very soon.
Per CNAF and PERS 43, the targeted roll out is late FY 20. It is already being beta tested in some echelon 2 commands.
The annual CNAF COs conference is next month. I expect there will be an update. Ask your CO about it before and after they attend.
First off - excellent! I'm glad you're engaged and actually thinking through some of this.
1. Lots of good point here, most of which is being covered in the FITREP and Eval system overhaul due to hit the fleet in about a year. I won't belabor the details, as it has been discussed in other threads. I do encourage everyone to talk with their COs about the new system
2. Interesting concept, but I think this already happens, for all practical purposes, under the current system. The RS that writes the FITREP just prior to the board essentially has veto power in how that FITREP is written. If I understand your point, I think this answers the mail.
3. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by decentralizing promotion. Since the golden path is defined by and briefed to the board by community leadership (I.E., what the community values), I'm not sure how you would decrease its role in the selection process. Please elaborate.
4. This too is currently being addressed in the overhaul, with the goal of moving to a more milestone based approach.
5. I get the frustration with detailers, and my sense is that a lot of that is community dependent. In mine (most TACAIR?), detailers and placement folks are due course community jobs, and they're usually good dudes. I acknowledge that that's not the case for everyone. FWIW, I don't think they're the ones creating the post-board statistics.
So, good discussion, from where I sit. Seems to me that a lot of your thinking WRT the FITREP and promotion system are things that PERS is already in the process of implementing. You may have a bright future in this business after all!
Glad we aren't completely at odds here - I was hoping there would be some mutually agreed upon improvements. WRT your response...
1. I'm optimistic about the new FITREP system. That being said, as Fink said it's been promised for quite a while now but still remains absent. Sure, CNP is now CNO, so he has a dog in the fight since it was his brain child, but I'll believe that the production model matches the prototype when I see the Navy implement it properly. I might be cynical, but I'm positive the Navy could have engaged Bain, BCG, et al to design a closed end talent evaluation and promotion system with appropriate enticements and it would have been done in a year. Maybe the Navy is slow rolling it, or maybe those who are already leveraged to the current system are making it harder to implement. Time will tell.
2. Sure, this could be happening already with the boards and a de facto veto - but how many possible points of failure and misinterpretation are there? We rely on 25 lines of a FITREP generated with 21 year old software to summarize a person's career. FITREP writing is like a secret code; pick the right buzzwords, use the right amount of stars, caps/no caps, etc. And 60 seconds to evaluate it? If we want the RS to have the power, then just give them the power; cut out the briefer, detailer, manpower lead, and however many board members of differing designators currently get a vote on an individual's potential without ever meeting or speaking with them. I can't see any advantage to the current system unless we want to proclaim that groupthink and uninformed decision making are advantages. Commanding Officers are supposed to have a sacred trust in the Navy, so let's trust them.
3. Happy to elaborate. Right now the golden path is briefed by the community leadership, like you said. But what constitutes the community leadership? Admiralty? Major Commanders? Skippers? (I doubt it's the Skippers). Chances are that what "the community" values are actually the experiences that the senior person had 20+ years ago - not the experiences that are necessary to lead the force for the next 5-10 years, which could be completely different.
Take my community for example. The board is told that FRS experience and a boat tour are the most important things you can have on your FITREP going up for O-4, so that's what they value. But what if that isn't what's best for the community? We are at the tail end of an aircraft transition and dealing with a constant flood of hardware/software upgrades and new mission sets. MAC, HAASW, AAS, AAR, they all change the game for us in meaningful ways. What if what the community needs instead of an NFO that spent 3 years teaching Cat I's how to load crypto at -30 and 2 years doing lunges on the boat, is someone who spent 3 years flying with the pod at an FSU and/or doing even more tactical shit with VPU? What if the squadrons would be better suited with a former WTU instructor - someone who is a WTI, has spent years working tactical training and readiness issues while dealing with CPRG on a weekly basis (since these are things that DHs will actually have to do)? What about the P-3 IPs who are great pilots but didn't even get a chance to go to the FRS because they were sundowning the plane and there were no more billets, so they had to go VT?
And those are just people that go off the golden path a little bit. What about the shit hot LT who decides after his first sea tour he wants to apply for the Fleet Scholar program and get an MBA from Harvard? Sure, he'll make it up with an additional six years on the back-end - assuming the Navy let's him go, which they won't, because it's not on "the path." Because who wants highly educated guys like that in their community?!
If we take that power away from Millington and the board, and instead give it to the individual RS's, chances are there is going to be more diversity in who gets promoted. Simply put, when you have ~100 (made up number) RS's making the promotion decision vs. one person setting the standard in Millington, diversity is inevitable.
4. Yay, traction (seriously).
5. If "due course" and "good dudes" go together in your community, then I'm glad VAQ has that going for them. Not my experience.
I'm flattered you think I have any kind of future in this business - but my fate was sealed a long time ago. And I appreciate the transition solicitation, although my professional satisfaction leads me elsewhere at the moment.
@Angry
1. Late FY 20 has always been the intended roll out date, so nothing has slid there. This is a big change. Big change doesn't happen fast in an institution this size. Patience is required.
2. I don't think you can adequately assess an entire career at promotion by listening to just the current RS. We do trust the COs - all of them, and not just the most recent. The whole record is important, and that is the briefer's job. There's no secret to the language that goes into the FITREP. If a guy like me can understand it, so can every other RS. Those key phrases that the board looks for should be things you are discussing with your RS during FITREP debriefs. I encourage you to sit on a board as an assistant recorder. I think that experience will be eye-opening for you.
3. Community values are briefed by TYPEWING CDREs. They have a responsibility to man, train and equip their communities. They are in command and it's their call. That's how this business works. If you don't think CDREs are in touch with what their communities need to succeed now and in the future, then you haven't spent much time talking with CDREs. Have you attended your community's NARG? CDREs are continually involved in a collaborative process that brings community expertise from JO patch wearers, to O5 leadership, to test community, PMAs and N98 ROs to determine what that community will need to lead 5-10 years into the future. To suggest that they are out of touch and living in the past is just not accurate. That is precisely what they get paid to do. I understand that opinions vary on the merits of the Golden Path mindset, and I think my views are clear on that. I don't wish to rehash that here.
That's enough for tonight. I think we agree on a great deal here. I also think you (and others) are unfortunate victims of VPenis - the gift that keeps on giving. I wish that wasn't the case.
1. Late FY 20 has always been the intended roll out date, so nothing has slid there. This is a big change. Big change doesn't happen fast in an institution this size. Patience is required.
2. I don't think you can adequately assess an entire career at promotion by listening to just the current RS. We do trust the COs - all of them, and not just the most recent. The whole record is important, and that is the briefer's job. There's no secret to the language that goes into the FITREP. If a guy like me can understand it, so can every other RS. Those key phrases that the board looks for should be things you are discussing with your RS during FITREP debriefs. I encourage you to sit on a board as an assistant recorder. I think that experience will be eye-opening for you.
3. Community values are briefed by TYPEWING CDREs. They have a responsibility to man, train and equip their communities. They are in command and it's their call. That's how this business works. If you don't think CDREs are in touch with what their communities need to succeed now and in the future, then you haven't spent much time talking with CDREs. Have you attended your community's NARG? CDREs are continually involved in a collaborative process that brings community expertise from JO patch wearers, to O5 leadership, to test community, PMAs and N98 ROs to determine what that community will need to lead 5-10 years into the future. To suggest that they are out of touch and living in the past is just not accurate. That is precisely what they get paid to do. I understand that opinions vary on the merits of the Golden Path mindset, and I think my views are clear on that. I don't wish to rehash that here.
That's enough for tonight. I think we agree on a great deal here. I also think you (and others) are unfortunate victims of VPenis - the gift that keeps on giving. I wish that wasn't the case.
You’re wrong. This is my shocked face.
For all the ‘do no harm to Big Navy’ bullshit every single Sailor and Officer has to deal with on a daily basis, this seems like an easy one for the Navy to deal with before it gets egg on its own face.
If you want to argue the presumption of innocence, sure, but headlines matter and this ain’t good for big navy.
Yes, this story completely dominated the headlines. I don’t know how CHINFO will ever recover.
