SECNAV to Implement Sweeping Changes

[jtmedli]

Just to clarify, do you mean they were never DIVOs, or they just didn't do shit as DIVOs? I find it hard to believe that "numerous LTs" were not afforded the opportunity to be DIVOs (epic front office fail, if so)...

I mean multiple #1 EP LTs who've never been in charge of anyone or even seen an EVAL. Not to mention #2/3/MP...

Having seen both sides of the fence, to a degree, there is an enormous value in getting exposed to how the fleet works at sea. Are shooter and arresting gear officer the way to do it? That is debatable, but having dealt with quite a few folks in my career who have not seen the boat it becomes pretty obvious that they lack in some critical knowledges about how the air wing, battle groups and the fleet operate at sea.

Agreed. Like I said, I'm not saying people should NEVER go to the boat. But why, as a LT who spent his entire JO tour as part of an airwing, am I being sold this myopic career path that says I have to go back to said boat in order to be "well rounded?" Isn't that the opposite of "well rounded?"

I'm not sure which job you're referencing about "getting to see how an acquisitions program for NAVAIR is managed and fly all over the country meeting program managers/engineers." If you're interested in NAVAIR then go to TPS. It gets you initial exposure to the NAVAIR world and is on the path and flying.

All this said, you do seem to think that being a DIVO is essential for leadership development. And if you go to an LHD or a CVN being a divo of a lot of sailors will be one of your primary roles. So I'm not sure why you're saying the tour is useless when you say that leadership is essential. In fact, one could argue that because of the large leadership responsibility that is involved in being an Air Department officer that having top performing leaders go there would be critical.

I have a friend in Pax River doing it right now. And he's not in TPS.

See above about the DIVO thing. It is important to me, and it is sold as such by XOs and COs (and CMCs), but if it's so important then why are the guys with the highest promotion rates (FRS/WWS) doing jobs that have NOTHING to do with division officer level leadership and why am I seeing #1EP after #1EP that's never held a DIVO job or been in charge of single enlisted person? Failure of the front office? Sure. But it's not just my squadron so are you telling me that every CO/XO on the seawall is jacked up?

 

[llnick2001]

If that's really happening at every squadron on the seawall, and I really want you to be wrong, then yes, everyone is jacked.

 

[nittany03]

See above about the DIVO thing. It is important to me, and it is sold as such by XOs and COs (and CMCs), but if it's so important then why are the guys with the highest promotion rates (FRS/WWS) doing jobs that have NOTHING to do with division officer level leadership and why am I seeing #1EP after #1EP that's never held a DIVO job or been in charge of single enlisted person? Failure of the front office? Sure. But it's not just my squadron so are you telling me that every CO/XO on the seawall is jacked up?

Obviously, different communities are going to be different. That said, where I came from, it would be completely unheard of for a first-tour JO not to spend a year or so downstairs. Are you saying that guys are getting FRS orders after no time as a DIVO, or guys are rotating back from those billets as super JOs? Because (again, from my community) a super JO would probably be a Training O, AOPS, or somesuch other senior LT/non-DH O-4 billet. And QAO is about the only one downstairs that would fit. But the concept of a first-tour JO not spending time as a DIVO, or even a Branch O if the squadron is packed to the gills with O's, honestly blows my mind.

 

[rotorhead1871]

on active duty, I was in OMD/QA then AIMD/AF and PP...no boats!...great CPO's and 1st classes saved my butt, and those were the evals that I wrote, they wrote the rest...it worked out very nice.

 

[Spekkio]

See above about the DIVO thing. It is important to me, and it is sold as such by XOs and COs (and CMCs), but if it's so important then why are the guys with the highest promotion rates (FRS/WWS) doing jobs that have NOTHING to do with division officer level leadership and why am I seeing #1EP after #1EP that's never held a DIVO job or been in charge of single enlisted person?

If you were really hard-up about managing personnel as an officer and/or that being an important quality for promotion, you joined the wrong service. The big boy JO jobs are given to people who can manage programs that can impact ship readiness. The goat locker by-and-large manages people. No one important cares about your ability to review a review an E-5 eval. The only thing that matters for promotion in that eval is EP/MP/P, and you will have little influence over that as a DIVO since it depends on ship-wide rankings.

That may sound heartless, but the Navy is goes to war with really expensive planes/ships/subs. Managing their readiness is given a higher priority than counseling PO2 Timmy on why it's bad to spend his entire paycheck at a strip club.

 

[IKE]

@jtmedli I was a DIVO for 4 of my 5 JO jobs, and as stated earlier, I started life on the enlisted side. Whether or not big Navy sees DIVOs as leaders of enlisted, I don't and didn't when I was on the other side.

I really don't think you can lead until you've done. The maintainers, aircrew, etc. are led by their 1st classes and CPOs. A DIVO's job is to not F away the paperwork and learn how things work while serving. IMO, as a JO, you are learning what you'll need to lead JOs when you're a DH, which includes not sucking in the aircraft, tactical prowess, and officer-related career knowledge.

I was a 25-yr-old E-4 with some college experience. I wasn't looking to my 22-yr-old ENS DIVO for life advice. Most enlisted folks want a DIVO who enables them to do their job/rating specialty with minimal interference, brings their concerns to the wardroom (when appropriate), and doesn't lose their leave chits.

 

[Brett327]

Some good points from Spekkio and IKE. @jtmedli - I haven't walked in your shoes, but it's sounding a lot like you're upset because the Navy hasn't designed its personnel management and officer career path around your unique set of circumstances. You've decided that a ship's company tour is suboptimal for you, but I think we've heard a lot of good discussion about why such a tour has a lot of value for VP, RW and others - not to mention the value it holds for the institution.

If the boat isn't right for you, you have some detailing options that will keep you away from it - even keep you in the cockpit and on a traditional (even golden) career track. You claim there's some kind of community brow beating going on for guys that just want to fly, yet you have verbals for a follow on tour that keeps you in the cockpit and on the golden path. So, I guess I'm left scratching my head over what all the fuss is about?

 

[Hair Warrior]

Looking to get this forum's thoughts on the SECDEF proposal to expand lateral accessions for civilians (esp. 181x and 182x designators) up to O6 level: http://www.militarytimes.com/story/...ntry-force-of-the-future-ash-carter/85884998/

SECNAV seems to be the most on board, of all the military branches. "The Navy, more than any of the other services, has pushed aggressively to expand lateral entry."

As a 33 year old non prior service applicant who is trying to become a reserve Ensign in the IWC, I can identify with the motivation to commission as an officer based on one's civilian credentials. I can see the rationale for commissioning nurses, doctors, dentists, and lawyers at LTJG or LT. However, I wonder how a new DCO Ensign in the IWC would feel if, a year into his/her SELRES service, the Navy direct commissioned a 40 year old non prior service at O-5 in the IWC.

At the very least, I reckon this kills the notion of ever making the IWC officer designators URL...

 

[nittany03]

If you were really hard-up about managing personnel as an officer and/or that being an important quality for promotion, you joined the wrong service. The big boy JO jobs are given to people who can manage programs that can impact ship readiness. The goat locker by-and-large manages people. No one important cares about your ability to review a review an E-5 eval. The only thing that matters for promotion in that eval is EP/MP/P, and you will have little influence over that as a DIVO since it depends on ship-wide rankings.

That may sound heartless, but the Navy is goes to war with really expensive planes/ships/subs. Managing their readiness is given a higher priority than counseling PO2 Timmy on why it's bad to spend his entire paycheck at a strip club.

I'm curious how in the world you managed to put my screenname on @jtmedli's quote, but ever onward. Speaking for myself, if you were addressing me, I'm not "hard up on managing personnel." Yes, the goat locker manages people. But who manages the goat locker? The ready room, in concert with the CMC. I'd argue time as a DIVO, even if you're not some awe-inspiring leader to maintainers, at least gives you experience in how shit is actually done downstairs, before you're put in more senior positions where it's your ass if what happens downstairs gets fucked away. You may not need to wipe SN Timmy's nose as a DIVO or MO, but you need to know the difference between a good Chief/LPO and a not so good one.

 

[BigRed389]

Looking to get this forum's thoughts on the SECDEF proposal to expand lateral accessions for civilians (esp. 181X and 182X designators) up to O6 level: http://www.militarytimes.com/story/...ntry-force-of-the-future-ash-carter/85884998/

SECNAV seems to be the most on board, of all the military branches. "The Navy, more than any of the other services, has pushed aggressively to expand lateral entry."

As a 33 year old non prior service applicant who is trying to become a reserve Ensign in the IWC, I can identify with the motivation to commission as an officer based on one's civilian credentials. I can see the rationale for commissioning nurses, doctors, dentists, and lawyers at LTJG or LT. However, I wonder how a new DCO Ensign in the IWC would feel if, a year into his/her SELRES service, the Navy direct commissioned a 40 year old non prior service at O-5 in the IWC.

At the very least, I reckon this kills the notion of ever making the IWC officer designators URL...

It seems desperate. And honestly, when every other community (including some very technical ones) is able to grow its own expertise, it's odd the community seems to feel that it needs to hire people off the street to ensure its future. The Navy pumps a lot of money into its post grad education programs, this implies they're not getting value out of those programs other than a diploma.
I also remember when IW was expanding, and they were taking lat transfers from anybody (lots of SWOs) with a pulse...including some guys who did not even have DivO or academic backgrounds in the fields. So either the training (including the post grad education they offer their AD O-3/4s) is inadequate, or they haven't been picking the right people.

It seems like the Navy's just giving up on being able to develop talent into future leadership, at least in the near future, and that paints a more disturbing picture of where we are now. Because a direct hire at O-5/6 should be responsible for leading and managing large parts of the IDC community, directing its future...not directly doing technical work. Which implies some people feel it's so fucked up we need someone from the outside to come in and fix everything.

 

[Brett327]

I wonder how the decision to change the educational focus for new accessions to a hard STEM requirement vice the poli-sci/history/IR focus of yesteryear has affected this issue. It would seem that those who reach the O4/O5 level are probably doing more analysis type work than technical.

 

[Spekkio]

Speaking for myself, if you were addressing me, I'm not "hard up on managing personnel." Yes, the goat locker manages people. But who manages the goat locker? The ready room, in concert with the CMC. I'd argue time as a DIVO, even if you're not some awe-inspiring leader to maintainers, at least gives you experience in how shit is actually done downstairs, before you're put in more senior positions where it's your ass if what happens downstairs gets fucked away. You may not need to wipe SN Timmy's nose as a DIVO or MO, but you need to know the difference between a good Chief/LPO and a not so good one.

I meant to quote jtmedli...oops.

I would say that as a DIVO, one doesn't have the experience or legitimacy to have a whole lot of influence over how the goat locker operates. You can do things to make your Chief's job easier by being engaged with operational planning and having a modicum of foresight, and then communicating that back to him. You can also make his life more difficult by not being engaged and fucking away the paperwork, creating re-work for him and the division or making people work late and/or at odd hours because the division wasn't made aware of an important evolution coming up. A DIVO also owns ship's instructions pertaining to the division and what processes to utilize to meet bigger Navy requirements, which means they own the policies that govern day-to-day operations that the Chiefs and 1st class POs execute. As was said earlier in this thread, I agree that a lot of more senior DIVOs under-estimate how much influence they can have over that aspect just by taking some initiative, but spending an hour editing an instruction and another 15-30 minutes explaining why you want the change to a DH isn't exactly glamorous work so not a lot of people are motivated to do it.

I would also say that it becomes painfully obvious which Chiefs are good or bad when you move up the chain, regardless of your DIVO experience.

Being exposed to the programs that will screw you as you get more senior is exactly what I was talking about in my previous post. If you're doing a good job as a DIVO, you'll be given the programs that need to be done correctly or else it's a bad day. If you're a mouth breather then the most important thing you will do is look at E-5 evals and correct spelling errors before passing them along.

 

[Spekkio]

It seems like the Navy's just giving up on being able to develop talent into future leadership, at least in the near future, and that paints a more disturbing picture of where we are now. Because a direct hire at O-5/6 should be responsible for leading and managing large parts of the IDC community, directing its future...not directly doing technical work. Which implies some people feel it's so fucked up we need someone from the outside to come in and fix everything.

Reading between the lines, it sounds like this effort is an alternative to having to out-source information technology and cyber security development, especially when the article references Mark Zuckerberg. It would be much cheaper to give him O-6 pay than to contract Facebook to develop the next iteration of NSIPs.

Unfortunately a guy like Zuckerberg makes O-6 pay in a week, so yea...good luck.

 

[BigRed389]

Reading between the lines, it sounds like this effort is an alternative to having to out-source information technology and cyber security development, especially when the article references Mark Zuckerberg. It would be much cheaper to give him O-6 pay than to contract Facebook to develop the next iteration of NSIPs.

Unfortunately a guy like Zuckerberg makes O-6 pay in a week, so yea...good luck.

That and Zuckerberg is way past actually developing anything anyway.

If the focus is on performing actual development or cyberwarfare, why not establish a specialist track of "IDC engineers" within the IDC or something like that?

Very rough analogy, but basically the Naval Reactors or Space Systems engineers.

Rank is for authority and responsibility. If you just need pay for incentives, that's what bonuses are for.

 

[Hair Warrior]

That and Zuckerberg is way past actually developing anything anyway.

If the focus is on performing actual development or cyberwarfare, why not establish a specialist track of "IDC engineers" within the IDC or something like that?

Very rough analogy, but basically the Naval Reactors or Space Systems engineers.

Rank is for authority and responsibility. If you just need pay for incentives, that's what bonuses are for.

The Navy has this already, right? The designator is 184x (RL Officer - Cyber Warfare Engineering Officer)

Also, isn't that kinda what LDOs are for? Enlisted specialists who become such specialized practitioners in their tradecraft that they are granted added responsibilities of leadership and managerial decision-making.

If so, include 681X (Information Warfare LDO) and 682X (Information Professional LDO)

Edit: If the Navy needs stellar cyber warriors who are expert practitioners, it could also consider direct accessions as IWC warrant officers (784X Cyber Warrant, 781X Information Warfare Technician, 782X Information Systems Technician)