SECNAV to Implement Sweeping Changes

[Treetop Flyer]

Marine Biology Level 100 must be one of the GMTs I blew off last year because that reference is lost on me. I guess that probably makes me a bad leader.

I thought Marine Biology was used for determining the proper mixture of dip and rip-its for optimum performance.

 

[Swanee]

I thought Marine Biology was used for determining the proper mixture of dip and rip-its for optimum performance.

Well played sir; well played indeed!

 

[jtmedli]

Who in your community is telling you this? Detailers? Front Office? What has been your own personal interaction with someone that led you to feel this way?

Look at said Golden Path. Look at what happens to guys who care more about flying than doing shitty boat jobs. They get booted. Look at what happens when you tell your front office that all you want to do is fly. There's something to what Masterbates said about telling your front office that you want to be the next CNO until your last fitrep is signed.

Edit: to answer your question. All of the above. I've heard the phrase "if you know what's good for you" (in relation to going to the boat) more than once from pretty much all of the above.

 

[Randy Daytona]

Look at said Golden Path. Look at what happens to guys who care more about flying than doing shitty boat jobs. They get booted. Look at what happens when you tell your front office that all you want to do is fly. There's something to what Masterbates said about telling your front office that you want to be the next CNO until your last fitrep is signed.

Edit: to answer your question. All of the above. I've heard the phrase "if you know what's good for you" (in relation to going to the boat) more than once from pretty much all of the above.

Who should get an EP: a lieutenant who demonstrates no expertise beyond the cockpit or a lieutenant who does his military education, who makes himself a well-rounded officer, who can handle jobs of greater responsibility? Its not about being the next CNO but being able to operate effectively on the operational and strategic levels of war - not just the tactical.

If you want to fly your whole career, go SelRes and you can still make O-5.

 

[nittany03]

Is this really the mentality at Big Brass HR Staff? Or is it more along the lines of organizational inertia, e.g. "this is how it's always been"? If it's the former, why? Do such HR planners really believe that a top-tier leader won't rise to the top naturally? Or that it takes literally 30 years of grooming to pick a leader (who by the way, is presided over by someone who may have spent less time on active-duty than whales are pregnant, but that's beyond the scope of this particular sidebar...)

Dunno. My only point is that the CNO, possible breaks in service excepted, started as an ENS and worked his/her way up. You don't get to laterally hire a new CEO in the Navy.

 

[Pags]

Look at said Golden Path. Look at what happens to guys who care more about flying than doing shitty boat jobs. They get booted. Look at what happens when you tell your front office that all you want to do is fly. There's something to what Masterbates said about telling your front office that you want to be the next CNO until your last fitrep is signed.

Edit: to answer your question. All of the above. I've heard the phrase "if you know what's good for you" (in relation to going to the boat) more than once from pretty much all of the above.

So where does WTI fit into these gripes? They're golden path flying orders with pretty much guaranteed follow-on flying orders.

 

[Brett327]

Look at what happens when you tell your front office that all you want to do is fly

I dunno, man. In my community, telling your front office those things will probably get you orders to the RAG or to our weapons school (with follow-on flying orders as a TO) - both of which significantly increase your chances to screen for DH. That's potentially 4 four straight flying tours (and you're on the golden path). I don't think the problem here is saying you want to stay in the cockpit.

 

[jtmedli]

I dunno, man. In my community, telling your front office those things will probably get you orders to the RAG or to our weapons school (with follow-on flying orders as a TO) - both of which significantly increase your chances to screen for DH. That's potentially 4 four straight flying tours (and you're on the golden path). I don't think the problem here is saying you want to stay in the cockpit.

Well then there's a massive discrepancy between your community and the helo community in that Deparment.

So where does WTI fit into these gripes? They're golden path flying orders with pretty much guaranteed follow-on flying orders.

Gripes? Really? So a guy can't critically think about the way we do business without it being called 'bitching'. WTI is a weird situation. They somehow have managed to create a situation for themselves where they are on the golden path to DH, XO, and CO without ever actually having to lead sailors. Going to a 3 month course on tactics and getting a patch does not a phenomenal leader make. Thats a whole other discussion though.

Who should get an EP: a lieutenant who demonstrates no expertise beyond the cockpit or a lieutenant who does his military education, who makes himself a well-rounded officer, who can handle jobs of greater responsibility? Its not about being the next CNO but being able to operate effectively on the operational and strategic levels of war - not just the tactical.

If you want to fly your whole career, go SelRes and you can still make O-5.

Outside of your one Div-O job as a fleet JO what real leadership or expertise are you demonstrating? Are you saying that because a guy can take 2 days a week off and go get an online MBA and knock some JPME that he's demonstrating what it takes to be future CO better than the guy who comes to work 5 days a week (or more) and does the job that we actually hired him to do? And what O5 CO is out there making "strategic decisions" about what their squadron is doing? They don't. Most O6 level decisions aren't even on that level. Most COs spend more time dealing with AN Timmys divorce/speeding tickets/DUI/theft charges/NIPR porn googling/etc... Than flying. Not to mention dealing with enlisted advancements, Evals, careers and whatnot that most of us as officers receive ZERO training on how to actually read/write or affect for the better. So do tell me how some LT's MBA from Phoenix online and JPME completion certificate makes him CO material over the guy who's been doing all that other shit while he was out of work 2 days a week "handling all of that other responsibility".

 

[Randy Daytona]

Outside of your one Div-O job as a fleet JO what real leadership or expertise are you demonstrating? Are you saying that because a guy can take 2 days a week off and go get an online MBA and knock some JPME that he's demonstrating what it takes to be future CO better than the guy who comes to work 5 days a week (or more) and does the job that we actually hired him to do? And what O5 CO is out there making "strategic decisions" about what their squadron is doing? They don't. Most O6 level decisions aren't even on that level. Most COs spend more time dealing with AN Timmys divorce/speeding tickets/DUI/theft charges/NIPR porn googling/etc... Than flying. Not to mention dealing with enlisted advancements, Evals, careers and whatnot that most of us as officers receive ZERO training on how to actually read/write or affect for the better. So do tell me how some LT's MBA from Phoenix online and JPME completion certificate makes him CO material over the guy who's been doing all that other shit while he was out of work 2 days a week "handling all of that other responsibility".

The O-5 and O-6 are not making "strategic decision" when they are in a squadron - but they are working on the operational and strategic levels when they are rotating through fleet and combatant command staffs, thus gaining a much broader perspective. As for being CO, all of those things you mentioned are part of the CO's job, in particular training his officers.

Never understood that whole 2 day off thing myself - as reservists we had to do a civilian job, our reserve squadron job and then JPME / Masters on our own time. That said, JPME and other similar schools build the foundation for what is expected at the next level. The flag needs competent staff officers to do research and planning - and this allows the junior officer to gain experience with the big picture.

 

[Brett327]

Well then there's a massive discrepancy between your community and the helo community in that Deparment.

Tell me something I don't know. In all seriousness, if the mindset in your squadrons is really as you describe, then that's something your community leadership needs to address. At the same time, I would caution you on drawing conclusions about Naval Aviation writ large, based on what you've experienced as a RW guy. This probably accounts for some of the cognitive dissonance I've experienced in reading some of the posts in this thread. Of course, that's a two way street that I'll be more attuned to in the future.

 

[jtmedli]

Tell me something I don't know. In all seriousness, if the mindset in your squadrons is really as you describe, then that's something your community leadership needs to address. At the same time, I would caution you on drawing conclusions about Naval Aviation writ large, based on what you've experienced as a RW guy. This probably accounts for some of the cognitive dissonance I've experienced in reading some of the posts in this thread. Of course, that's a two way street that I'll be more attuned to in the future.

No doubt. I think P3 guys would probably say something similar. If all was right with the world then some of you jet guys would carrying the load on these boat jobs. I mean, you are the ones that are predominantly making CO, XO of the carriers. But for whatever reason or drug deal that exists, I don't see many jet guys getting told "this shooter/LHD mini boss/ANAV gig will really lock you in for operational skipper".

 

[Brett327]

No doubt. I think P3 guys would probably say something similar. If all was right with the world then some of you jet guys would carrying the load on these boat jobs. I mean, you are the ones that are predominantly making CO, XO of the carriers. But for whatever reason or drug deal that exists, I don't see many jet guys getting told "this shooter/LHD mini boss/ANAV gig will really lock you in for operational skipper".

Well, for one thing, most of us already have a ton of CVN experience. FWIW, I know plenty of TACAIR guys who have done ANAV tours (and screened for DH and command).

 

[IKE]

...I would caution you on drawing conclusions about Naval Aviation writ large, based on what you've experienced as a RW guy...

Particularly if your JO tour was expeditionary, and especially if it was HSC EXP. I feel like I learned a lot of the things Brett is saying as an HS (now HSC CVW) dude, and the few friends I have in HSM CVW seem to have learned them also. I think HSC recognizes this disparity, and it is why they are trying to cross-pollinate at the DH level.

RW is awesome, but when you're expeditionary, you spend a lot of time deploying with a small group led by a single O-4, who may have no knowledge of or interest in advancement beyond DH. As a CVW guy, you can't get away from Mom and Dad, you sometimes sit next to CAG/DCAG in the wardroom, maybe meet the CVN CO/DESRON/CSG, and get exposure to shooters, TAOs, etc.

Whatever the differences are between TACAIR and RW, I often find the differences between EXP and CVW are greater.

 

[squorch2]

Meh, don't worry about exposure to the TAOs.

 

[jtmedli]

Particularly if your JO tour was expeditionary, and especially if it was HSC EXP. I feel like I learned a lot of the things Brett is saying as an HS (now HSC CVW) dude, and the few friends I have in HSM CVW seem to have learned them also. I think HSC recognizes this disparity, and it is why they are trying to cross-pollinate at the DH level.

RW is awesome, but when you're expeditionary, you spend a lot of time deploying with a small group led by a single O-4, who may have no knowledge of or interest in advancement beyond DH. As a CVW guy, you can't get away from Mom and Dad, you sometimes sit next to CAG/DCAG in the wardroom, maybe meet the CVN CO/DESRON/CSG, and get exposure to shooters, TAOs, etc.

Whatever the differences are between TACAIR and RW, I often find the differences between EXP and CVW are greater.

There's definitely a huge gap between CVN RW guys and Exp RW guys. It's pretty night and day. Most people just don't realize it because we're all "HSC" so we must all do the same thing but that's not exactly true. FWIW, I'm a carrier guy.