Hassan was made a cripple by two of those "rent a cops". One paid dearly for her quick and effective response by taking a couple bullets.
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starbucks open letter re guns
- Thread starter wink
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A heroic effort on her part, but sadly many people were killed before those "rent a cops" finally arrived. If more people nearby had been carrying, the number of innocents dead would probably have been lower, and Hassan would hopefully have died at the scene instead of collecting over $300,000 dollars in pay over the last several years.
But don't worry. You don't need to carry on base. When the shooting starts, and every SECOND counts........ the police are only MINUTES away!!!!!
You won't get much debate from me over increased carry on base, or anywhere for that matter. I simply don't approve of the pejorative "rent a cop" , which is a personal slam, when those people do the best with what they have and are trained to do. Which by the way likely includes far more firearms training then most of the guys on this forum, especially in the case of handguns. Additionally, you have to be careful judging the effectiveness of the response just by body count. The very best highly trained non-rented cop tactical response isn't going to engage an active shooter before he can kill a dozen people if he sets his mind to it.
Doesn't the "if everyone had a gun, this wouldn't happen" argument only hold water if everyone is clear who the bad guy is? In the Navy yard shooting, once the bullets started to fly, how do you determine who is the good guy and who isnt? If everyone is draw and sneaking from cube to cube, who do you take aim at? The beauty of security guards is the uniform. Typically the guy in the jeans and sweatshirt with the gun is the bad guy. I understand the protect yourself concept and think it can work, but I don't think it as quite as cut and dry as the NRA makes it out to be. Arm everyone in the cubicles, fire 1 shot, and see who starts shooting who. In Iraq when the pot shot morter rounds came in, the biggest danger was the 18 year old PFC locking and loading looking to get his terrorist kill. I was much more afraid of him than the lucky mortar round.
Excellent point, blue on blue is always a concern. But there are some common sense ways to avoid the sort of nightmare scenario some folks dream up. As if a mass shooting by the bad guy were not already nightmare enough. First, the vast majority of these happen with long guns. Anyone shooting in the mall with a long gun in civ clothes is highly likely to be a bad guy. Anyone with am extended mag is not a law abiding concealed carry citizen. Anyone with a tactical vest, dressed all in black is worth a second look and likely the bad guy. But more to the point. The armed citizen isn't expected to and probably shouldn't take off on the offensive clearing rooms. If an armed citizen saw a person shooting kids cowering in a corner, no matter how he dressed or what kind of weapon, have at it. Blast away. But mostly, you use your weapon for personal defense and the defense of others. It is completely moral to simply protect your self and the ones around you. If someone points a gun at you, shoot them. If you hear shooting around the corner, maybe best to leave it to the pros. If you go to the fight then you leave others defenseless and put yourself in a position to be shot yourself in a blue on blue, or worse, shoot the only professional on site. The NRA doesn't make it very cut and dried. Those are just the sound bites you hear.
Wink.... All of your points are things that need to be in the national discussion on gun violence. I find it a bit irresponsible for the NRA to simply come out and take the stand that more people need to have guns. I would argue it is just as irresponsible for lawmakers to make stands against the gun industry without any education on guns or the impact of what they are trying to ban (assault weapons for one). I would argue that perhaps more TRAINED and SKILLED people need to have guns, but not just more people. I guess I just see too many scenarios unfolding in these events where it is too hard to identify the perpetrator. I hear gunshots, then screaming and I draw, come around the corner to see what is going on and see a person in front of me holding a gun. Friend? Foe? How long to I wait to find out? In addition, how much harder is law enforcement's job if they are walking into a building of now trigger nervous people? It is a difficult situation for sure. Staring down the barrel of an active shooter, you're absolutely right I would like to have a gun on my hip. But 1 floor away from the active shooter while trying to get out of the building, I really don't want to come face to face with my John Wayne co-workers looking to save the day, but shooting at me instead.
Bottom line, like much of the rest of the problems in this country, real intelligent solutions need to be discussed with rationality on both sides. Not just 24 hour news bites aimed at maintaining political power.
Bottom line, like much of the rest of the problems in this country, real intelligent solutions need to be discussed with rationality on both sides. Not just 24 hour news bites aimed at maintaining political power.
This would be a good experiment. Use simunitions, and tell everyone that there is a shooter. Have the scenarios be a bit different and make sure that only the shooter knows that he is the bad guy. We in the military go through huge steps to avoid blue on blue and (very unfortunately) it still happens from time to time.
When the cops train for a shooter scenario do they consider that their could be an armed citizen protecting himself? I understand that if you are fighting back the cops show up the best thing to do is get down on the ground, be as none threatening as possible and let them "arrest" you. But how would the police respond in the scenario above? I can only imagine the public outcry if it came out that the cops ended up shooting and/or killing the concealed carrying hero.
Except FON exercises are either in international seas or disputed waters that are otherwise not owned by anyone. Historically, if we are challenged during such an exercise we are prepared to defend ourselves on the spot. Open carry guys flaunting their right on private property may actually reduce others ability to navigate that business with a gun because ownership has the right to ban them. And if asked to leave and told not to come back I would hope no one would resort to the use of violence. We have done that at sea. FON exercises are rooted in maritime tradition and international law. Your right to carry a gun onto another's private property, including businesses, is not guaranteed by any law. So don't flaunt it. Be polite and discrete.
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Here we go again. Targets asks customers to not bring guns into stores because of in your face open carry guys. I had read the open carry group in TX asked their members to stand down weeks ago. Now this. These self righteous assholes are doing NOTHING to promote gun rights. They have logged not a single "win". They are losers. All they do is get anti gun folks mobilized and vocal. That leads to major nationwide businesses making anti carry statements and policies in national media. Activists for gun rights need to remember the goal. It is not about making a statement or visibility. It isn't about universal acceptance by all your neighbors. It is about getting things done. They need to leave the AR in the safe and write their state rep, give money to a candidate they support, patronized pro gun businesses, have respectful conversations with their unsupportive neighbors and generally quit being pricks that ruin it for me and others.
exNavyOffRec
Well-Known Member
I worked with a person that was a big open carry advocate, after this Texas group has been doing open carry with AR's, he is no longer a big open carry advocate. There is a time and a place for many things, but I can't think of any time where it is appropriate to go walking around a store with a rifle while you shop.
Hey,
Fuck you hippie, my stacks are proportional...go suck on the tailpipe of your Prius...
Pickle
