starbucks open letter re guns

[wink]

This is why I have a problem with open carry agenda guys. The guys that make a big deal out of open carry as some sort of constitutional statement are a net negative impact for anyone interested in expanding firearms rights. We have yahoos flaunting open carry laws and videoing their encounters with the police in the hopes they get an unprofessional reaction from the cops. There are guys that carry openly in obviously emotion charged places. In a state like mine where we have had open carry since territorial days, and recently concealed carry without a permit, carrying your cocked and locked 1911, or worse, Norinco pistol openly simply causes angst among the polis. It just isn't, well, polite. IMHO. Don't get me wrong. I have carried open many times before. But it is in rural areas where disarming after a hike or hunt just to get gas or a sandwich is a hassle. In those parts of my state guns don't cause a second glance. Then there is the guy at lunch just today that carries openly in a restaurant packed with a lunch crowd in a major urban area. Why is that necessary? He even had a long tailed shirt. He only had to pull it over his holster. Which brings me to another observation. In nearly every case of unnecessary (my opinion) open carry I have seen, the holster of choice is a cheap nylon rig. WTF. If you are going to carry openly then use something with some real retention qualities and dress it up a bit. Oh ya, the Starbucks thing.

So it appears Starbucks has had groups of open carry folks frequenting their establishments. It has apparently made their customer uneasy. So, the CEO issues this open letter, which appeared in several major papers including USA Today and NYT. Honestly, for a company whose corporate citizenship is marked by liberal tendencies, I think he is handling this very well indeed. I think he is being reasonable. I just hope the open carry jihadists don't push back. It is bad for gun ownership in general.

http://www.starbucks.com/blog/an-op...source=search&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=phd

 

[Recovering LSO]

THIS ^ if we could only get every gun-owner/concealed carrier to read your post. I'm convinced the majority of today's open carriers do so to antagonize. Well stated Wink.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I knew the big open carry events were going to lead to this type of thing, everyone should have just been able to say thanks to Starbucks by giving them business, even though open carry is legal in many places it doesn't mean you have to make a big event out of it.

I have open carried but it was pretty much the reasons you listed wink, and I agree with your statement on if you do open carry dress it up, and along those lines if you open carry don't look like a dirtbag, I have seen people open carry that are unshaven and in rags, those people draw attention, the ones that are in nice clothes rarely get a second look, how many people are going to see a person in a shirt and tie with his weapon in a good retention holster and go "that guy is trouble"

 

[wiseguy04]

I'm sorry, but open carry is dumb. Period. You carry for protection. Anyone who carries to "make a statement" or "exercise their right" is a fool, and will only draw unnecessary attention from law enforcement.

Everytime I've been armed, it's concealed, to give me the option to NOT get involved if it makes tactical sense. Open carry throws that tactical advantage right out the window, and also creates a liability by potentially exposing you to a "gun grab."

OPEN CARRY = NOT SMART

The only time I've open-carried is at the range, and once at a barbecue with family in our backyard (as was everyone else).

/end rant

 

[BigBadBoJenkins]

I'm as pro gun as the next guy, but I think open carry types tend to be a little off the mark. They think they are leading the constitutional parade, but in reality they are alienating people that should be on our side. There's no reason to open carry in a city environment, and there are many reasons to conceal. Now we have a business becoming the centerpoint of this issue when they don't want to be. The reaction of Starbucks is likely to be just to ban guns so their business isn't jeopardized.

 

[wink]

I'm sorry, but open carry is dumb. Period. You carry for protection. Anyone who carries to "make a statement" or "exercise their right" is a fool, and will only draw unnecessary attention from law enforcement.

OPEN CARRY = NOT SMART


/end rant

Which may be why most of them use crappy holsters and belts, or worse no belts. In the end they aren't serious gun guys, just dummies that want to make a statement, constitutional or otherwise.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I'm sorry, but open carry is dumb. Period. You carry for protection. Anyone who carries to "make a statement" or "exercise their right" is a fool, and will only draw unnecessary attention from law enforcement.

Everytime I've been armed, it's concealed, to give me the option to NOT get involved if it makes tactical sense. Open carry throws that tactical advantage right out the window, and also creates a liability by potentially exposing you to a "gun grab."

OPEN CARRY = NOT SMART

The only time I've open-carried is at the range, and once at a barbecue with family in our backyard (as was everyone else).

/end rant

I can count on one hand the times where I have open carried, usually it was I was going to or from the range and had clothes that didn't permit concealed. I think anyone that could open carry should be concerned about a gun grab, I myself use a level 2 retention to reduce that chance.

 

[Fallonflyr]

Every time I see an open carry yahoo I think to myself how easy it would be to take that gun away from him.

 

[squeeze]

I'm sorry, but open carry is dumb. Period. You carry for protection. Anyone who carries to "make a statement" or "exercise their right" is a fool, and will only draw unnecessary attention from law enforcement.

Doubly so for the assholes who walk around with an AR-15 on their back and then sue the city because cops drew down on them. There is no justifiable reason to walk around a modern, first-world metropolitan center (or really, any populated area outside of some third world shithole) with a fucking rifle on your back. If you are that pants-wetting paranoid, go buy some property in North Dakota or Montana and build a little compound.

 

[Hotdogs]

Then there is the guy at lunch just today that carries openly in a restaurant packed with a lunch crowd in a major urban area. Why is that necessary? He even had a long tailed shirt.

Why is it your right to criticize and suggest something that is none of your business?

If our society wasn't so docile, timid, immature and generally retarded when it comes to weapon safety and in particular handguns and assault style rifles we wouldn't be dealing with stupid idiots running around trying to invoke a reaction from cops. I also find it interesting that America as a whole has generally enjoyed a very long period of declining violent crimes and the large urban area in which you criticize this guy for open carrying are the exact type of areas in which violent crimes are still most likely to occur. While, I wasn't there and didn't see nor hear the mannerism and general attitude of the person you describe as being out of line with regards to carrying his weapon, I generally do not care about anyone exercising his 2nd amendment rights. Any morons trying to invoke reactions from cops I tend to make fun of much in the same way as my buddies trying to wave their wings/ID card around to get some sort of special treatment. We get it idiot, you got a gun, now STFU and go home.

 

[xj220]

I agree with a lot that has been said here. Just because you're allowed to do something doesn't mean it's prudent. Proving a point is a short term gain with long term implications. There is very much some politicking to this as Wink alludes to and alienating people does no good for your cause.

 

[wink]

Why is it your right to criticize and suggest something that is none of your business?

Somehow I get the idea that you would not question my right to criticize if my criticism were positive. So you don't really have a problem with any person's right to be critical of others actions but you just disagree that I thought he was an idiot. Moreover, you assert that it was none of my business. How did you determine that? Were you there? What gives you the right to criticize my reaction to the guy? Aside from the fact that I have a natural and moral right to fairly criticism or judge people I will defend myself for general entertainment. I am qualified to judge the manner in which someone carries a weapon and under the circumstances. I have law enforcement training and experience. I was carrying concealed myself and if I didn't make note of his weapon and come to some judgment about the guy then I was being supremely irresponsible. He was just a bit odd. Nothing alarming but it was beginning to creep my wife out. And no, it wasn't that she is squeamish about guns. She shoots and has knowledge of the tactical employment of weapons. The restaurant is a middle eastern establishment frequented by a wide varied of professionals that happen to include many foreign born engineers and technical types from India, Pakistan, and the middle east. Background: some years ago in my community some idiot shot a Sikh in a rage over terrorism because he though the poor guy was an Arab. You don't need a permit to carry concealed in my state. he had a shirt that would have covered his weapon. then why display it? He had to have a reason. Under the circumstances the only reason to do so was to make a point of simply displaying it, or to bring it into action more quickly then if concealed, like my weapon. So you see, I had a real good reason to pay attention to this guy and tactical sense required me to come to some conclusions, judgments, which I have chosen to relate in this thread as criticisms. Anyone that would not have done the same thing is not taking their safety seriously and if carrying a gun, not taking the added responsibility seriously.

If our society wasn't so docile, timid, immature and generally retarded when it comes to weapon safety and in particular handguns and assault style rifles we wouldn't be dealing with stupid idiots running around trying to invoke a reaction from cops.

Logically, I don't get this. Help me out. So the public might not like openly carried guns, especially ARs, so that somehow motivates guys to carry openly to taunt the police?

I also find it interesting that America as a whole has generally enjoyed a very long period of declining violent crimes and the large urban area in which you criticize this guy for open carrying are the exact type of areas in which violent crimes are still most likely to occur. While, I wasn't there and didn't see nor hear the mannerism and general attitude of the person you describe as being out of line with regards to carrying his weapon, I generally do not care about anyone exercising his 2nd amendment rights. Any morons trying to invoke reactions from cops I tend to make fun of much in the same way as my buddies trying to wave their wings/ID card around to get some sort of special treatment. We get it idiot, you got a gun, now STFU and go home.

I care about how people exercise their second amendment rights when it sheds a poor light on the rest of us. I care when a guy is carrying irresponsibly when my family or I am around. I care when the actions of any gun owner can lead to a negative impact on my rights.

 

[IKE]

Another case of dumb friends being as bad or worse than smart enemies.

 

[Hotdogs]

I'm going to keep this short and sweet because internet arguments are a waste of time.

Somehow I get the idea that you would not question my right to criticize if my criticism were positive. So you don't really have a problem with any person's right to be critical of others actions but you just disagree that I thought he was an idiot. Moreover, you assert that it was none of my business. How did you determine that? Were you there? What gives you the right to criticize my reaction to the guy? Aside from the fact that I have a natural and moral right to fairly criticism or judge people I will defend myself for general entertainment. I am qualified to judge the manner in which someone carries a weapon and under the circumstances. I have law enforcement training and experience. I was carrying concealed myself and if I didn't make note of his weapon and come to some judgment about the guy then I was being supremely irresponsible. He was just a bit odd. Nothing alarming but it was beginning to creep my wife out. And no, it wasn't that she is squeamish about guns. She shoots and has knowledge of the tactical employment of weapons. The restaurant is a middle eastern establishment frequented by a wide varied of professionals that happen to include many foreign born engineers and technical types from India, Pakistan, and the middle east. Background: some years ago in my community some idiot shot a Sikh in a rage over terrorism because he though the poor guy was an Arab. You don't need a permit to carry concealed in my state. he had a shirt that would have covered his weapon. then why display it? He had to have a reason. Under the circumstances the only reason to do so was to make a point of simply displaying it, or to bring it into action more quickly then if concealed, like my weapon. So you see, I had a real good reason to pay attention to this guy and tactical sense required me to come to some conclusions, judgments, which I have chosen to relate in this thread as criticisms. Anyone that would not have done the same thing is not taking their safety seriously and if carrying a gun, not taking the added responsibility seriously.

1) I don't care about what you do or do not critize. I do find it weird that you deemed this man irresponsible and for what you described as being "odd" That's a great way to deem who is and isn't qualified to carry a weapon. Slippery slope if you will, leave the medical (psychological?) profession out of your job description. If you found this man to be holding his weapon in a threatening manner, then by all means. I generally support police officers but only when they stay in their lane. Given the recent history in your community, (which you didn't bring up in the first post...) I can understand and appreciate your concern. That's all.

2) Whether or not he chose to display the weapon is irrelevant to the common citizen. He isn't breaking the law and shouldn't become the target of an off duty police officer because he chose to do something completely legal. Did the restaurant have a gun rack to place his weapon in? (sounds dumb but many rural areas have them in establishments) Maybe he was unaware of the state's laws and/or maybe was from out of state. There are a lot of rabbit holes you can go down on this one.

Logically, I don't get this. Help me out. So the public might not like openly carried guns, especially ARs, so that somehow motivates guys to carry openly to taunt the police?
I care about how people exercise their second amendment rights when it sheds a poor light on the rest of us. I care when a guy is carrying irresponsibly when my family or I am around. I care when the actions of any gun owner can lead to a negative impact on my rights.

Yeah it does. Doucherocket #1 is a big gun advocate and realizes the vast majority of the public has no real firearms training, no exposure to firearms, never had to defend themselves with a gun and most of their firearm knowledge comes from GTA5 or Modern Warfare. This special douche gets his gun and video camera and goes out to makes his point via youtube. Scaring the shit out of people. If most citizens were acclimatized to having a gun around, (which the vast majority of people aren't) they would probably end up thinking "hmm, that dude has a gun" and fucking carry on. The simple presence of a weapon has now turned into an offensive act. That's a shame.

...and I failed at keeping this short.

 

[wink]

I'm going to keep this short and sweet because internet arguments are a waste of time.



1) I don't care about what you do or do not critize. I do find it weird that you deemed this man irresponsible and for what you described as being "odd" That's a great way to deem who is and isn't qualified to carry a weapon. Slippery slope if you will, leave the medical (psychological?) profession out of your job description. If you found this man to be holding his weapon in a threatening manner, then by all means. I generally support police officers but only when they stay in their lane. Given the recent history in your community, (which you didn't bring up in the first post...) I can understand and appreciate your concern. That's all.

2) Whether or not he chose to display the weapon is irrelevant to the common citizen. He isn't breaking the law and shouldn't become the target of an off duty police officer because he chose to do something completely legal. Did the restaurant have a gun rack to place his weapon in? (sounds dumb but many rural areas have them in establishments) Maybe he was unaware of the state's laws and/or maybe was from out of state. There are a lot of rabbit holes you can go down on this one.

If you don't care what I criticize, why question what I have a right to criticize? ? Just disagree if you like. I never said the man was irresponsible. I never even said he was an idiot, except maybe by association since I referred to open carry agenda guys as idiots. And I never passed judgment on his qualifications to carry a gun, except again by extension since I had generally criticized people who carry in cheap ass unsecure nylon holsters (he had one). People with training who are serious about self defense and safety don't use those holsters. In my state, there is no legal qualification besides age, he was old enough, and lack of felony conviction, no idea. If I found him to be holding the gun in a threatening manner I would not be in the critical analysis mode any longer, he would likely have been shot. It absolutely is relevant to a common citizen who is aware of personal safety concerns. It is very much of interest to cops. Would any normal family man be concerned if three gang bangers, tear drop tattoos, gang colors, the works, comes into a restaurant speaking loudly and using profanity? Nothing illegal there. But if it doesn't make you very aware you are brain dead. Those guys are a potential threat. They advertise it. How can you not take special notice of a guy with a gun on his hip. It doesn't matter why. He has an extraordinary ability to cause mayhem. It is a split second from action. Doesn't matter he isn't breaking the law. Sure the same can be said of a concealed carry guy. But the whole point is no one knows he has a gun so he doesn't get the additional scrutiny. If you are going to wear a gun openly expect some extra scrutiny.

Doesn't know the state laws? Really? Who carries a gun, openly at that, who doesn't know the law? That isn't one of the rabbit holes you want to go down.

Yeah it does. Doucherocket #1 is a big gun advocate and realizes the vast majority of the public has no real firearms training, no exposure to firearms, never had to defend themselves with a gun and most of their firearm knowledge comes from GTA5 or Modern Warfare. This special douche gets his gun and video camera and goes out to makes his point via youtube. Scaring the shit out of people. If most citizens were acclimatized to having a gun around, (which the vast majority of people aren't) they would probably end up thinking "hmm, that dude has a gun" and fucking carry on. The simple presence of a weapon has now turned into an offensive act. That's a shame.

Very weak analogy/reasoning. We will just agree that kind a guy is a douch regardless of his motivation.