MasterBates
Well-Known Member
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What do VR reserve pilots do during "off time"
- Thread starter smoke_screen
- Start date
Right you are, and thanks for catching my mistake.
I usually tell prospective guys that "if they wish to do more" and wondering how much to expect then about 100 workdays is a good ballpark figure (48+72 max out drills at 2/day, the 12 days of AT, plus a few additional days of AT, and/or ADT), without getting too much into the weeds and alphabet soup, or explaining funding (to which the usual reaction is like a dog watching TV).
Thanks for explaining that (one) better than I could have and (two) better that a SMCR explain it than for me to assume to speak for an organization I work with but I don't belong to.
When I try and educate new SELRES or perspective SELRES on the basics of how things work, the first thing I say is, "Don't get bogged down in the alphabet soup..."
...and this is exactly why (because I was in the same boat when I first tried to understand it).
~100 days... that's a lot! Having never held a "normal job" I can't speak from experience, but it seems like it would be so hard to have a good career that let you miss this much time.
But as someone explained to me, if you make $35k in that 90-100 days (seems like a huge stretch btw), and served 10 years AD prior to it, you basically need to make up ($35k reserve salary x 10 years = $350,000) + (about $25k retirement per year from 59 to 84-ish = ~$650k) a total of $1M in additional salary somewhere during the next 30 year period, or between $30k-40k more per year.
So your "normal job," if they tell you that the one week per month is prohibitive and too much time to miss, needs to pay you $30-40k more annually until retirement than a flexible 3-week/mo job, for it to be worth it. Or am I missing something?
But as someone explained to me, if you make $35k in that 90-100 days (seems like a huge stretch btw), and served 10 years AD prior to it, you basically need to make up ($35k reserve salary x 10 years = $350,000) + (about $25k retirement per year from 59 to 84-ish = ~$650k) a total of $1M in additional salary somewhere during the next 30 year period, or between $30k-40k more per year.
So your "normal job," if they tell you that the one week per month is prohibitive and too much time to miss, needs to pay you $30-40k more annually until retirement than a flexible 3-week/mo job, for it to be worth it. Or am I missing something?
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Here's what our reservists do:
Cop in Long Island
Airline Pilot
Pharmaceutical Sales
EMS Helicopter Pilot
Small Business Owner
GS Employee
Stay at Home Dad
With the exception of the Pharmaceutical Sales guy, our bosses are all flexible enough to allow us time to be gone. Here's the thing - 100 days is not 100 days. I would say expecting 100 points is the norm. Some of those points are 2 points per day. I would expect a reasonable amount of time to be gone is 65-70 days/year. For what it's worth, I have a full time job (I'm the GS Employee) and I average between 110 and 120 points per year. I make a little over $25K/year in my reserve gig, which makes up for the pay cut I took becoming a GS. When I was reserve bumming? I made $65K in one year, working 2-3 days a week.
As for the retirement piece, you've thought about it way more than me! But then again, I'm going to be looking at a FERS retirement and a reserve retirement...
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Sorta. More like:FIFY
GS Employee/Military Dependent
Stay at Home Dad/Military Dependent
I'm not the only one in the squadron whose wife is in the Navy...
Although one thing you're missing is the federal law that says they HAVE to let you go. If they don't - you sue and get a big payout.
No, 60 days, but if you wanted more, then ~100 would be reasonable to plan on from year to year. In this case, to only do the minimum (60 days) is perfectly respectable. Sometimes it is also possible to nickel-and-dime some of those a half day at a time (and manage to be honestly productive too). Weekends too.
Note that the 60 day minimum is a CNATRA reserves rule (other communities may vary), and it is higher than basic mins the reserves- which is coming in to the reserve center the proverbial "one weekend a month" (getting GMT and miscellaneous personnel readiness done... very exciting stuff
) and doing something productive for "two weeks a year" (might mean staff work to support somebody's workups or exercises somewhere).
They have to let you go be a Reservist. That's not the same as supporting you. If they straight-up tell you "we're firing/not promoting you because you keep going off on these Navy trips," then yeah, you can take 'em courtside and will most likely win. I believe I read about a firefighter somewhere who wasn't promoted to Lieutenant and was explicitly told it was because he might have to deploy with the Reserves, and successfully sued the city for promotion and back pay.
However, there are some horror stories out there of employers sidestepping the ESGR laws. One example I read was of a high school principal, a LTC in the Guard, went off on a yearlong boondoggle vacation to Iraq. When he returned, the school district made him asst principal of the local 'alternative' school (the kind for kids with social difficulties like stabbing people). Techincally that's legal - they have to give you your job back or one at 'equivalent pay and seniority' - but it was pretty clear they were career-fucking him out of a sense of revenge. He took them to court, but I'm not sure of the outcome.
Of the two 'real jobs' I've had since leaving AD, both were in the defense industry, but were vastly different experiences vis-a-vis my Reserve time. The first job was with a small (~500 employees), notoriously cheap company who begrudged me every day I went Reservin' that wasn't on a weekend. I had to burn time off or go LWOP (Leave Without Pay), and heard a lot of heavy sighs every time I said I was going. All this even though it directly supported the contract I was working on.
The Iron Works, on the other hand, has been extremely supportive. Immediate bosses like it because my Reserve flight time and quals helps keep me current at no cost to the company. Corporate likes being a "Reserve-friendly" company. I get differential pay (regular pay minus Navy base pay) while I'm gone, they're keeping me on my company health insurance at no cost while I'm mobilized, and job will be waiting for me when I get back. I'm not naiive enough to think it's out of a sense of patriotism - I can see all the ways this doesn't cost Corporate much or works to their benefit - but I'll take it.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Good points Fester, and very valid. There was a LtCol in the USMCR that went to Iraq, came back and they started giving him negative performance reviews (he had stellar ones before he left) and then fired him based off his negative trend. He won his lawsuit to the tune of $500,000. And the company had to pay his legal fees.
Both my jobs have been in the defense industry as well. My first job, most of my front line managers would whine when I went to do reserve stuff (and one even tried to give me a negative performance review because of it). The CEO was a retired Marine - and my manager ended up getting a visit from him about it (how he found out, I honestly don't know). No problems after that.
My current job is pretty flexible (my boss is a retired LtCol, and his boss is an AD LtCol), and as long as I give them a reach around WRT the reserve stuff (i.e. - don't go on a reserve boondoggle during a TACP/JFO class) they're very supportive. I'll actually come in late and fly after work a lot. As long as I communicate with them and do the legwork to get someone to cover what I normally do if I HAVE to go during a class, they're good with it.
Both my jobs have been in the defense industry as well. My first job, most of my front line managers would whine when I went to do reserve stuff (and one even tried to give me a negative performance review because of it). The CEO was a retired Marine - and my manager ended up getting a visit from him about it (how he found out, I honestly don't know). No problems after that.
My current job is pretty flexible (my boss is a retired LtCol, and his boss is an AD LtCol), and as long as I give them a reach around WRT the reserve stuff (i.e. - don't go on a reserve boondoggle during a TACP/JFO class) they're very supportive. I'll actually come in late and fly after work a lot. As long as I communicate with them and do the legwork to get someone to cover what I normally do if I HAVE to go during a class, they're good with it.
Funny thing is, in some ways all the ESGR laws can make it more difficult to deal with the Navy. There's been a lot of noise about increasing Reserve commitment; one year out of every five on AD is one I've heard floated, which is idiotic, not to say impractical. Big Navy thinks its feasible because "what's the big deal? Their jobs are protected." We're trending towards being like the USAR/Guard, where Reservists are basically just active duty guys who are laid off between deployments.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
My company is in the "we will follow the law, but don't expect any support not required by the law" camp. HR and big corporate support it publicly, but down on the operating level, its treated as an annoyance at best.
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phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
That push is not just for the Navy. As a whole, they're looking at a Operational Reserve vice a Strategic Reserve. It's an easy way to "downsize" without saying "no" to all the other commitments levied on the active component.
I'm pretty happy with where I am, because the Marine Corps has made it very clear that there is no way in H-E-Double Hockey Sticks that they're going to deploy a bunch of broke-down helicopters, for fear of them out performing their mulit-billion dollar shiny new toy.
Case in point: Afghanistan - it has been widely said by the powers that be "no legacy platforms in Afghanistan". Yet the UH-1N, CH-53D, F/A-18A, and KC-130T have all deployed there, all legacy platforms. What they MEANT to say was, no Phrogs. I'm not complaining, and like I said - it'll pretty much guarantee the only thing we'll do is small dets here and there/voluntary deployments.
Not to mention that a large part of the Reserve Force can't actually do anything. Okay, they can stand at a customs checkpoint and inspect something, but so many people have either no idea or it's just been too long to know what to do in their Rate. I think the Navy is starting to figure that out, especially with the latest NAVRIDE/PTS program ("Hey Reserve units, can you gather all this info from the members that's actually already in NSIPs and then put it in another database so we know what everyone is actually doing? Thanks."). Or at least I hope they are. Then again, I continue to get minimal help from CNRFC detailers, so maybe not.