Anytime Allah

[HeyJoe]

Tell ya what, I'd be a lot more respectful of an IrIAF that had Flankers and PL-12s. An occasional flyby of a pair of Tomgrapes isn't really all that impressive.

Tomgrape? Pretty bold talk there, Hacker.....especially when Iranian Tomcats have a kill ratio far exceeding that of F-15 according to open source accords filtering out of Iran and documented by Tom Cooper on ACIG website. Even allowing for overclaims, their record against the Iraqi Air Force is impressive. The only F-15 aces are Israelis and according to Cooper, there are or were many Iranian Tomcat aces, several with double digit victories. But if you don't want to believe open source accounts, simply look at USN vs USAF in first ever encounter in skies over Nellis during AIM/ACEVAL. Even though it was forbidden, the best the Air Force had to offer in aircraft and pilot and counterparts in Navy decided to see who was "the grape ripe for plucking". note: it was an Air Force general who forbade the encounter and then tried to seize the guncamera footage afterwards. So if the Tomcat was such a grape, whu was Air Force so reluctant to allow them to tangle with each other? Remember the words of Galland: "Only the spirit of attack born in a brave heart with bring success...."

Yes, the pipper of the F-14A Tomcat is on the helmet of his adversary in this guns kill.

 

[navyao]

"Tomgrapes" huh? Yea and I don't know if we can always count on the 1st FW and there F-22A's to handle all of the worlds A/A threats either. Lets not forget how our Super Hornets are substandard to anything the AF flies...oh wait, look below!

Since 2006 when "our" jet was retired it has been disheartening to say the least to see the Air Force of a government that we consider an enemy to the U.S. flying the F-14. Now F-14's are in museums, the last D-mod ever made sits just inside Oceana's main gate, or even worse, seeing them shredded, all so the Iranians couldn't get their hands on spare parts. I remember the parts shortage of the early 90's and when the F-14 line was dismantled at Bethpage; too bad we couldn't get parts from some other country back then, maybe we wouldn't have had to canibalize our "christine" jet.

 

[jmcquate]

I'm assuming that there were a few DACM hops with 15s vs. 14s in the 20 years when the 1st TFW and east coast Tomcat squadrons were base within 20 miles of each other, what generally were the outcomes?

 

[HeyJoe]

I'm assuming that there were a few DACM hops with 15s vs. 14s in the 20 years when the 1st TFW and east coast Tomcat squadrons were base within 20 miles of each other, what generally were the outcomes?

Like the movie "Sandlot" the game never ended and nobody kept score. Generally Eagles tried to use superior thrust to weight to stay high. Then the A+ arrived in 1987 with little fanfare and sporting the big motors. The Eagle drivers found some Tomcats were willing and able to go vertical with them at the merge. But before that happenstance, there was the saga of Sneakers....an able bodied Eagle Driver based at Langley. Like Hacker, he laid on the smack talk with the best of 'em. When the movie Top Gun hit the streets and Tomcats got so much attention, he couldn't stand it. He took his pride with him in an interview with local Hampton press reporter and poured out his heart on how the Tomcat could never best the mighty Eagle and the movie focused on wrong aircraft. At the time, VF-101 OPS was legendary "Flash" Gordon who lived for the merge. He cut his teeth on the F-4 Phantom and eventually became OinC of the VF-171 ACM Det at Key West flying stripped down A-4 Skyhawks daily amassing hundreds of hours of pure ACM time against all comers. So Flash reads the article and calls his counterpart at Langley at tells him...well first, if you don't know Flash, his voice is a dead ringer for the cartoon character Foghorn Leghorn....so imagine the booming voice coming over the duty black telephone "I say there, you know what needs to happen here....." so the OPS O agreed to show up in Whiskey 72 with Sneakers on his wing. Flash said he'd bring a FRS student for a syllabus hop. The two section meet over the Atlantic at the appointed time and the fight separates into 2 1v1 engagements. The FRS students flies his prescribed tactics and dispatches his opponent after a few turns. He turned out to be Sneakers. That left the two masters to settle the score. Not knowing who his opponent was, Flash decided to forego missiles and settle the matter with gun camera evidence just in case it was Sneakers. As the fight slowed down, the Tomcat's wings programmed forward giving Flash the benefit of a tight turning machine with considerable pitch authority and then he put the big boys down, a varsity move in close and slow. He pulled for all he could get for a firing solution and the P&W motor suffered a compressor stall. Flash told his RIO, "Don't worry son, we'll tend to that shortly". He proceeded to satisfy the proscribed criteria for an up close and personal guns kill on what he hoped to be Sneakers and then unloaded to restart his stalled motor. At the telephone debrief, Sneakers was absent, but the OPS O said he didn't think Sneakers would be following up with another interview with the press as he hoped.

Note to Hacker: Flash went on to command one of the first F-14D squadrons on his next assignment. He had a toddler son at the time of the epic engagement. Flash and I were there at Oceana about 20 years later when he "patched" to his father's squadron as the last Tomcat nugget in 2005. He made the last deployment and transitioned to the Super Hornet. He was patched last year at TOPGUN. Flash couldn't make it, but I was there. I'm pretty certain if you can arrange to be in an Eagle over Whiskey 72, he can show up in a one or two seat Super Hornet to see if history repeats itself.

 

[yak52driver]

^^^^^^^ That is a great story, thank you for sharing it.

 

[navyao]

HJ,

I think you should write a book. If you can pack stories like what you wrote above I'd buy it.

 

[Swanee]

Neat stories. Though I'm sure there have been times when some AF guys have made some Navy guys eat their words. The old man likes to say that the top 1% of any service will beat 99% of the guys from any other service; but that those top 1% would be lucky to win 2 out of 3 against each other. It's that kind of training that keeps us the best as a whole.


Oh and AO- the way that it's been explained to me: In a real fight if you even see an F-22 (let alone get within guns range) the Raptor driver(s) has done something terribly wrong. I'm not saying they are the be all end all, but I would definitely put my money on the Raptor in the real world over any other country flying against it.

 

[HeyJoe]

Oh and AO- the way that it's been explained to me: In a real fight if you even see an F-22 (let alone get within guns range) the Raptor driver(s) has done something terribly wrong. I'm not saying they are the be all end all, but I would definitely put my money on the Raptor in the real world over any other country flying against it.

And then there's the great leveler: ROE

Not all fights are like medieval jousting contests where longest lance wins. Otherwise, Phoenix would have been King Kong. If you cripple yourself with ROE like we have since Viet Nam, all the BVR and Stealth/standoff weeps work great on paper, but rarely get played in real world where ROE and Collateral Damage concerns neuter a lot of potential effectiveness. Not that the F-22 isn't a deadly weapons system up close and personal, the fur ball tends to favor the one with best eyeball SA.

 

[HackerF15E]

Anyone who is a fighter pilot knows that posting single-frame snapshots through the HUD proves absolutely NOTHING about an aircraft's overall prowess against another.

If that's your standard, though, here's a shot of me tracking a Hornet. Apparently that means Strike Eagle trumps Hornet.

FWIW, in the 2 times I have fought Tomcats 1 v 1, I am 1-0 against the F-14A and 0-1 against the F-14D.

You guys are welcome to post YOUR OWN shots if you really want to play the chest-thumping game...not just the "best of" shots that you've collected from the internet or from a single storied encounter that someone you know once had 30+ years ago.

This discussion isn't even about the fucking F-14, anyway...it's about the IrIAF, but I guess you sensitive types just couldn't pass up the opportunity.

 

[jarhead]

I can't see the video due to it being blocked but all smack talking and dick measuring aside...

Tell ya what, I'd be a lot more respectful of an IrIAF that had Flankers and PL-12s. An occasional flyby of a pair of Tomgrapes isn't really all that impressive.

They might be able to make some fly and look pretty, but to make the avionics and weapons work, AND proficiently execute valid tactics with those avionics and weapons, is a completely different story.

... is right on the money.

 

[HeyJoe]

This discussion isn't even about the fucking F-14, anyway...it's about the IrIAF, but I guess you sensitive types just couldn't pass up the opportunity.

You're the one who posting the G word on a Navy forum thereby inviting a retort. It isn't about sensitivity at all. Just truth in posting. By your own admission you have an even exchange rate so why even go there in first place. Note: You can call it a Turkey because that's accepted parlance, but anyone thinking a Tomcat is grape ripe for plucking is grossly underestimated their opponent no matter who is flying it. Plenty of examples in past of such attitudes reversing fortune such as Japanese getting worst end of the AVG at same time they were steamrolling the rest of the allies in same neighborhood. Less than 30 years later, VPAF MiGs used Chennault's tactics against the Air Force in same neighborhood and taught big Air Force a lesson in humility in 1965-66 and again in 1972 when they forgot what they had to do to turn the tables in 1967.

Air Force mentality of aerial superiority complex in that regard resulted in several periods of embarrassing exchange rates over a single decade in Vietnam requiring immediate triage and somewhat radical mindset adjustments in terms of Doctrine/training/leadership, etc.

 

[HackerF15E]

Seriously...use of the term "Tomgrape" was sufficient to derail the entire conversation away from the thread topic? Sensitive much? May not be normal parlance for you guys, but it is in my community. I had no idea that it wedgied your panties so easily.

The point of the whole thing, since apparently you all missed it by a country mile, is this: Middle East air forces are way more concerned with perception than they are with prowess. The Iranians are no different -- they think that pretty uniforms, clean paintjobs, and formation flybys make their adversaries quake in their boots. They flex their military muscle every couple years with conspicuous flybys of their F-14s and their homebuilt F-5s.

Although I don't underestimate the IrIAF capability (because they certainly have the potential to put up a good fight), I think that the way they're presenting themselves in the posted video (and other press reports) laughable. I dunno about you, but I'd rather go up against an IrIAF armed with F-14As and Phoenixes than one sporting J-11s and PL-12s.

It's far more likely that I'd be painting a Tomcat silhouette on the side of my jet than a Flanker silhouette.

 

[A4sForever]

I don't 'measure' too much anymore, 'cause I'm an ol' guy ... but back when my 'ruler' had a little more of a 'straight-edge' to it I fought F-14s, F'nA-18s, F-15s, and F-16s if considering 'newer generation' fighters ... and all from the vantage point of a then 30-year old subsonic platform designed w/ no HUD and no gun camera .

The overall ledger is still considerably on my side when it comes to pretend kills/morts ... but that wasn't why we were doin' it. It was to train others ... and get THEM better ... to allow others to prevail & survive if/when they ever confronted the 'real deal' ... the guy who did it for his own ego was a loser.

A short tally sheet from a 30 year old memory bank (no cameras, please ):
1. The F'nA-18s were relatively 'easy' at the time as they were flown by a host of new guys and former A-7 drivers ... nice pitch authority, however ...

2. The F-15s came next as a group 'cause many were flown by AF 'nuggets' out of Eglin ... FWS @ Nellis obviously was constituted of much more skilled, heads-up drivers and they had a great airplane -- but still ... tactics ... lots of doctrinal constipation ...

3. The F-14 was next as it was easy to see and it wasn't that difficult to get in close and scratch & claw with ... those fights showed lots of F-14 basic ACM skills as most of the mid to senior drivers were former F-4 drivers ... the Nuggets were relatively 'easy' ...

4. The F-16 was the all-around toughest opponent (unless he tried to go slow/horizontal) and many of the 'new' F-16 jocks were former Century-series drivers ... lots of stick & throttle experience ...

While some may take exception to this 'ranking' ... that's the way it was ...

The 'best' 1V1 I ever participated in?? A knife fight out over W470 (?) against an O-5 F-15 driver who had beaucoup time in F-4s starting in Vietnam ...

The 'best' 2V1 I ever participated in?? It's a toss-up. One was a vertical fight against two USMC reserve-bum F-4s on the TACTS range @ Yuma ... the other was ANOTHER vertical fight against two Montana ANG-bums flying their last (?) det in F-106's !!! 106's !!!

The morale of the story: as a basic, bottom line -- it's the man, his tactics & training, and his SA. It's not the machine ... nearly anyone can 'fly' ... but not everyone can 'fly well'.

Check Six ...

 

[HeyJoe]

Seriously...use of the term "Tomgrape" was sufficient to derail the entire conversation away from the thread topic? Sensitive much? May not be normal parlance for you guys, but it is in my community. I had no idea that it wedgied your panties so easily.


It's far more likely that I'd be painting a Tomcat silhouette on the side of my jet than a Flanker silhouette.

What you're missing is Air Warriors is decidedly NOT your community or service for that matter and you're missing the clues here......The fact Air Force has underestimated opponents more than once and lost aircraft not to mention putting guys in prison or worse due to front office on down attitudes of superiority and vaunted patch wearers deciding tactics from afar from Vietnam through Desert Storm.

 

[Pugs]

You guys are welcome to post YOUR OWN shots if you really want to play the chest-thumping game...not just the "best of" shots that you've collected from the internet or from a single storied encounter that someone you know once had 30+ years ago..

Sorry, never had a camera or a HUD for that matter (it's sad when your car has a HUD and your jet never did!) but I will say that EW on your side is the great equalizer.

The AWG-9 was a tough nut to crack, even with a jet full of the right pods (I'll be a bit fuzzy about how hard even today) but every F-15 (A-C) was a grape. We used to help the 113th F-16 guys against the 1 FW F-15's and I said I'd buy for the evening if the Eagles got a valid radar shot prior to the merge. I always drank free. I'll come clean and say every F/A-18A-C was the same.

Nothing beats a big-ass radar and a dedicated operator for working through a cloud of trons. We haven't had to deal with that but we will and I hope we don't have to re-learn those lessons we learned in the cold war.